an lds on: By What Authority?

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selah
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Re: an lds on: By What Authority?

Post by selah » Sat Apr 04, 2009 3:14 am

karenprtlnd wrote:
The question of the hour as posed by Selah for karenprtlnd:

What writings did the Creator of the Universe give us to rule our thinking and actions?

As to what writings, karenprtlnd wrote- :

"How about a NT based conversation. I think we can already agree on the NT writings. However, if the KJV looks like it may become a problem for many on this forum, would someone like to make another suggestion at this point?"
Or, in other words, isn't the new testament,already approved and read by both?

Selah then wrote:
Who says the BoM can give you instructions for your thoughts and actions?" (No one). "....for your very life?!" (No one). Who said "the glorified man" can give you instructions for your thoughts and actions?" (No one). "....for your very life?" (No one). Nor a church. Nor the tv or radio. Nor the media only. and No. I am not trying to change the subject. Nor would I enjoy listening to "green fairy" woman.
Hi Karen, I read your post before you edited it and then drove a distance to come home, giving me time to ponder your words. I want to tell you that I feel your dedication to persevere through timed, public computers demonstrates a faithfulness to fellowship that is commendable. Thank you for being a faithful, forum, friend. :)

Your last post has given me much to think about. The first thing I would like to do is to affirm our similarities: I believe we both want fellowship; you want fellowship with "evangelicals" and I want fellowship with LDS. I believe we both want to love and obey God and we both read the NT. I think it is fine that you want us to both read the NT and discuss it.

I would like to explain where I have been coming from: On a thread named "By What Authority," I expected to discuss evidence which "proves" the Authority. Did we have different expectations?
Selah, I am suggesting to you that not by man will we find agreement here, but by the NT as an already common authority as a basis for LDS/Evangelical dialogue.
My apologies, I see that you don't want to engage in detailed conversation about
why
you feel the NT has authority in your life. That's okay; I abandon that plan. We can talk about the NT if you want to. Can we agree the NT is a trusted text that God uses to tell us who He is, what He wants us to think, and what He wants us to do?
You brought up Lee Strobel's book "Evidence Demands a Verdict" as if the title itself is a Bible verse that has now become some kind of theme for your personal presentation style. You've mentioned his name now several times, and that you would like us to review it together. No. Lee Strobel was, an almost atheist, working at the Chicogo Tribune which afforded him some access and already had proffesional level investigative skills. He was married to a Baptist. In his narrative he shares his personal struggle with the Bible. He share his findings with us in book form for the public. That is all.
No, I did not mean "Evidence Demands a Verdict" is a Bible verse. I probably should underline book titles. I think that is the correct way to refer to a book. sorry. We could review Lee Strobel's work if you want to, but we can study the NT if you want to also. I'll talk about just about anything you want to.

You are right, Lee Strobel was an atheist. He was an educated attorney so yes, he was a professional investigator before becoming a pastor. However, there was more to his work on The Case for Christ than what you said. He did not just share about his personal struggle with the Bible.

To begin, Lee Strobel investigated Jesus Christ by using the same skills he would have used in investigating crimes, mysteries or puzzling news stories. He traveled to numerous experts in the fields of biology, archeology,and history, etc. He interviewed these experts and treated the process as if it were a trial investigation. Near the end of his investigation, he did (in the last chapter) discuss his struggle because as I recall he stated that there is no proof of Jesus, but there is evidence beyond a reasonable doubt. Once the evidence reached a certain tipping point, he began to struggle with his unbelief. He ended the book by sharing the beginnning of his new life in Jesus. He believed in Jesus by faith, but the scientific and prophetic evidence convinced him that, in as much as a trial lawyer can be convinced of a defendants innocense or guilt, that Jesus was God in the flesh.
You brought up Steve Greggs work "The Authority of Scripture", and I couldn't agree with that title more. The Narrow Path live radio show, I found, as an LDS listener, interesting, in that he not only proves he has read the Bible, by his great lucidity and capacity to correlate huge blocks of text, but also his personal congeniality with such a broad listening audiance.


I like TNP too, and I agree that Steve Gregg has wonderful communication skills with his callers. but my understanding of his teaching about the "Authority of Scripture" is focused on compelling evidence. Have you listened to his teachings on the subject? It has been a while since I listened, but if my memory serves me correctly, I believe he teaches evidence by which we can trust that the scriptures are true (not fiction). Please read this explanation as a loose paraphrase, okay? because his way of explaining the "Authority of Scripture" teaching would probably be better than my explanation.
You mentioned that you were a "skeptic Christian". Then you would not find me a very fun audience. However you do ask "Where in the Bible does it say that?" I find myself very similar in this. TEXT has a very solid and stable foundational quality to it. It doesn't move around on the page like we as people do. I suggested the NT. I read the KJV, but I am open. What do you think about this?
Well, first, to my discredit, I think calling myself a "skeptic" may lead the reader to think that I have no faith. But in my effort to help you understand my (past) desire to look at scientific and prophetic evidence, I chose the best word I could think of.

The fact is that because I have faith, I ask the question we both ask, "Where in the Bible does it say that?" Perhaps we should start a thread called that! :D (I browsed the forum before starting this post in the hopes of finding a thread where we could study the NT in the way that you want to. Since I don't know how to start a thread, would you like to start one and name it whatever you want to?)

Now, I don't understand what you meant by talking about text not moving on the page and stuff. I don't understand. I DO see that you suggest the NT and that you read the KJV. What do I think about this? Yeah, I'm happy to discuss the NT and read the KJV with you.
You imlied that if you don't base every thought on Jesus Christ, you find yourself in a state of anarchy. I might agree. That outside of this one TEXT, that there is an infinity of ideas constantly pressing in upon us. One can find a kind of peace in this text. I have found it to be an enduring and stablizing
resort, in, as you implied, in a day of fanciful babblings.
Karen, Your quote does not sound like LDS thinking to me! Most generational LDS that I have talked with can't find selected scripture within the NT, much less find solace in it. My experience of LDS is that if they turn to scripture, they choose BoM or D&C...
You mentioned a list of requirements for the LDS to consider:
---"verses from the Bible stating the theology the LDS believe"
I suggested that we can agree both on the NT as a basis, in order to reveal these sorts of things, in time, by using something we both already have in common. The NT.
...............................Okay.
---"prophesies within the BoM that have come true."
The Birth of Christ, The Coming of the Messiah, The end of this one people, for instance.
However, prophecy within itself would have to be considered "self referenced" and disqualified.
..................Some scripture within the NT tells of the fulfillment of OT prophesy. If one believes in the NT, then it follows that they believe in prophesy and it's fulfillment. How can fulfilled prophesy be disqualified?
---"secular historical documents...(as DNA, archeological digs, places, peoples, poetry, etc)
By who, or by which group. From what scientific era, or limitations of that era. How about the Kenya Man...... (What ABOUT the Kenya Man). Or was it Kenewick.
.......................I don't know about the Kenya Man or Kenewick but I have notes about DNA research testing Native Americans and middle easterners. Obviously, DNA research is fairly contemporary scientific research. I can give you more details later if you want more.
---old BoM plates, manuscripts, etc. anything to indicate that the book is NOT fantasy.
All of this, the tracking of both the plates and the UT, can be found in volume 1 of JSHC. JS writes that it was the same messenger which had met him at the original site of the plates, and it was by this same messenger who, as Joseph Smith recorded, is the same messenger as came to retreive these items on the various occasions. It is quite interesting actually......
...........................I do not trust JSHC. His "translation work" reminds me of the author of the Winnie the Pooh series. The author had visits from a spiritual being while the author sat typing at his typewriter. He said the spirit guide sat on top of the desk, or something like that. :| The spirit had an agenda to distract children (therefore adults since children grow up), to distract children from the real Jesus Christ. Another example is the "little green fairy woman." My point? We have to test the spirits to see if they are true. There is a scripture in the NT that tells to.
Please know that anyone at any time can call upon the missionaries, recieve a free book of Mormon, or pose questions to the missionaries

I went through the six week study two separate times about 20 years ago. Wow! I'm getting old! :lol: I didn't realize it has been that long!
Selah, just a pointer. The courtroom style of prosecution attorney demanding evidence, may have been cute for Lee Stobel, and by profession James R. White. Both could describe the intensity and tension that is involved in this kind of investigative styling. Political dabate is not for the squeemish, nor for the uninformed. It is also a very painful style to have had to endure as well.
................I am very sorry if I caused you pain. :cry: Really I am. Let's move off the "Authority" thread okay?

I'm not sure Lee Strobel would agree it was "cute." He seemed to take it very seriously. I've never heard of James R. White. Anyway, why don't you state your expectations for discussion within the NT. What would you like to show me from the NT?

Oh, i have to tell you, my two main objectives as a Christian are as follows: (1) to obey Jesus Christ and (2) to know who He is. Theology is secondary to me. So if you want to jump into theology, you may not hear much passion. I have thoughts about it but no convictions like I do on the subject of obedience and relationship with the Lord. My first and foremost inquiry as a Christian was "who are you and what do you want?" From there, I am learning to obey Him and honor Him.

Karen, this day, knowing you, the Holy Spirit has shown me (again) Prov 3: 5b, 6 "Lean not on your own understanding, in all your ways acknowledge Him and He shall direct your paths."
Jesus said, "I in them and you in Me, that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that you have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me." John 17:23

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mkprr
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Re: an lds on: By What Authority?

Post by mkprr » Mon Apr 06, 2009 3:27 pm

Hi Karen and Selah

I am new to this whole forum thing and feel a little funny jumping into the middle of your conversation but I guess since it is publicly posted I’m allowed to do that without breaking any rules of etiquette right?

I am on my lunch break and don't have much time but just wanted to introduce myself and show you both an interesting article if you are interested.

I belong to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints too and have been listening to tnp for about 3 years. It's a great show. Selah, you talked about how you are concerned most about Knowing who God is and learning to keep his commandments. Amen to that! If our focus is on becoming disciples of Jesus Christ we can't go wrong. I have always spent more time studying the scriptures and the will of God for me than I have studying ways to prove the scriptures are true to people who don't have faith in them either Bible or Book of Mormon but I have been more and more interested in the evidences for both.

When someone has a seriouse desire to know if the Bible is really what it claims to be they usually have to put some concerns on the backburner and open their hearts to both evidence, and to the spirit of God. I think you expressed your desire to do the same with the Book of Mormon stating that you don't need it to be proven before you try reading it, you just need at least 3 shreds of evidence to support it.

I like that. It sounds fair to me. If you have time please read this article about Archaeological evidence and the Book of Mormon. In the middle there it might sound like he is attacking the evidence of the Bible, he isn't he is just putting forth a comparison to show that it is important not to Judge the Book of Mormon so harshly if we are not willing to judge the Bible by the same harsh standards. I'd love to chat more but lunch is over. Have a great day, we'll have to talk more soon.
http://www.fairlds.org/Book_of_Mormon/A ... ormon.html
Last edited by mkprr on Tue Apr 07, 2009 12:33 am, edited 1 time in total.

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mkprr
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Re: an lds on: By What Authority?

Post by mkprr » Mon Apr 06, 2009 11:36 pm

Selah,
I found another intersting article for you. It is about the journey that Lehi's family took before arriving in the Americas. The route they took although often ridiculed by early critics has been proven to accurately portray the landscape. The most striking evidence here in my opinion is that in 1st Nephi the family makes camp in many places along their journey in the wilderness. Most places they name themselves but just bevfore they head eastward they stop in a place that already has a name. This place that Lehi and his family called Nahom along with it's name has recently been discovered. The article is kind of long but interesting. Check it out.

http://www.fairlds.org/Book_of_Mormon/A ... ormon.html
Last edited by mkprr on Tue Apr 07, 2009 12:30 am, edited 1 time in total.

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mkprr
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Re: an lds on: By What Authority?

Post by mkprr » Tue Apr 07, 2009 12:28 am

I found another great article about the use of metal plates among ancient peoples. http://en.fairmormon.org/Book_of_Mormon ... tal_plates
At the bottom of this article are dozens of articles on other topics pertaining to the Book of Mormon. Some are well written, others, not so well written but they are all interesting.

It appears that as time goes on and more discoveries are being made and people are taking a closer look at the text, facts seem to be piling higher and higher on the Book of Mormon's side. I wouldn't by any means say that archaeologically the Book of Mormon has been proven beyond all reasonable doubt. I think it still has a very long way to go, but there is enough to take it seriously.

I know what people think when they hear the word "Mormons" I was a missionary in Finland and there was a guy there that one of my friends taught the Gospel to. He had been praying for months in spiritual anguish asking the Lord for spiritual direction and in prayer was prompted to go out to the open market place and that he would find his answers there. My friend and his missionary companion walked up to him and introduced themselves and asked him if they could go teach him and his family about the Gospel of Jesus Christ. He said yes and gave them his address but as soon as they turned around he later said he literaly looked up, and prayed silently to God "The Mormons? Are you kidding me? The Golden Bible reading long underwear wearing Mormons?" He eventually was baptised but it's not easy putting all those weird things you hear on the back burner long enough open your heart to the Spirit.

I realize I haven't yet addressed any of the other types of evidence you would like to see. If I can find time over the next few days I'll paste some interesting scriptures from the old and new testament about the Book of Mormon and talk about a few Book of Mormon prophecies. Untill then read a few of those articles. If I can ever provide you with sufficient “scraps of evidence” I look forward to discussing the Book of Mormon with you as you read it. It’ll be good times all around I promise! :D

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Post by Jill » Tue Apr 07, 2009 1:54 pm

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selah
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Re: an lds on: By What Authority?

Post by selah » Tue Apr 07, 2009 2:35 pm

Karen wrote
The LDS is not even the church as found in the new testament documents.
Mike,

Thank you for joining the forum. I really hope you stay.

I was going to post today and write you the same thing Karen stated in her quote above. I decided to insert her quote because I agree on this point.



Karen, :)

I respect you very much for reading the Bible.

Also, I want you to know that I appreciate the hundreds of hours you have invested in this forum!

I defer to you, and look forward to reading your future posts carefully and conscienciously. You have my word on that.

Selah*
Last edited by selah on Tue Apr 07, 2009 8:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Jesus said, "I in them and you in Me, that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that you have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me." John 17:23

Jill
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Post by Jill » Tue Apr 07, 2009 2:58 pm

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selah
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Re: an lds on: By What Authority?

Post by selah » Tue Apr 07, 2009 3:46 pm

karenprtlnd wrote:selah,

Thank you, and I've appreciated the tangle. I've just recieved a warning notice from the board administrator in regard to my posts. In time, I may just have to bow out....... I feel very sad about this and I will greatly miss this Bible focused environment. I've enjoyed the "bark", but my guess is that the bite is just as rabbid as the read has been. After 8 months of reading anti-LDS documents and the many very learned and extremely sophisticated debate posts, I've become just a little bit bruised and a little bit punchy I guess in its wake. You'de think by now I'de be used to it, huh? I obviously am having a problem with this sort of public forum debate.
Karen,

Thanks for your reply. Just so you won't think you're in this "bruised and a little bit punchy...wake" alone, will you read this? You wouldn't believe how much hate-monger language I heard as a child and young adult, except that it came from the leadership in my childhood church-life, telling me that I was going to hell for things like..........the proverbial "everything"..... Then, after I left the childhood church, a couple of mainstream churches told me I was going to hell because I couldn't get past my warped sense of who Jesus was, you know, the way the childhood church taught me. I was caught in a feedback loop and felt like I couldn't get to God any way I tried!

When I finally read the Bible again, the story in the NT that connected, and I believe it connects with your situation too, is in Matt. 18:6,7. I'm going to write it out in the KJV translation:

Jesus said, "But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged around his neck, and that he were drowned in the depths of the sea. Woe unto the world because of offenses! for it must needs be that offenses come; but woe unto that man by whom the offence cometh." Matt.18:6,7

Praise God for the rest of God's Word that has the power to heal the children and then those very children literally pray blessings for their enemies. God is pretty cool, huh, to come up with a plan like that?

"Love covers a multitude of sins." I hope you don't mind my quoting scripture.

Please don't worry about the moderators. I think everything is going to be just fine.

On my end though, I may take a couple of days break from the forum. Think of it as "spring break." I've been on here more than I had planned to be, but the opportunity to learn has been very good! I'm probably a little older than you are though, so I need a nap! ;) Really. Selah*

see ya?
Jesus said, "I in them and you in Me, that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that you have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me." John 17:23

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selah
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Re: an lds on: By What Authority?

Post by selah » Tue Apr 07, 2009 8:10 pm

SueAnn wrote:
karenprtlnd wrote:selah,

Thank you, and I've appreciated the tangle. I've just recieved a warning notice from the board administrator in regard to my posts. In time, I may just have to bow out....... I feel very sad about this and I will greatly miss this Bible focused environment. I've enjoyed the "bark", but my guess is that the bite is just as rabbid as the read has been. After 8 months of reading anti-LDS documents and the many very learned and extremely sophisticated debate posts, I've become just a little bit bruised and a little bit punchy I guess in its wake. You'de think by now I'de be used to it, huh? I obviously am having a problem with this sort of public forum debate.
Karen,

Thanks for your reply. Just so you won't think you're in this "bruised and a little bit punchy...wake" alone, will you read this? You wouldn't believe how much hate-monger language I heard as a child and young adult, except that it came from the leadership in my childhood church-life, telling me that I was going to hell for things like..........the proverbial "everything"..... Then, after I left the childhood church, a couple of mainstream churches told me I was going to hell because I couldn't get past my warped sense of who Jesus was, you know, the way the childhood church taught me. I was caught in a feedback loop and felt like I couldn't get to God any way I tried!

When I finally read the Bible again, the story in the NT that connected, and I believe it connects with your situation too, is in Matt. 18:6,7. I'm going to write it out in the KJV translation:

Jesus said, "But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged around his neck, and that he were drowned in the depths of the sea. Woe unto the world because of offenses! for it must needs be that offenses come; but woe unto that man by whom the offence cometh." Matt.18:6,7

Praise God for the rest of God's Word that has the power to heal the children and then those very children literally pray blessings for their enemies. God is pretty cool, huh, to come up with a plan like that?

"Love covers a multitude of sins." I hope you don't mind my quoting scripture.

Please don't worry about the moderators. I think everything is going to be just fine.

On my end though, I may take a couple of days break from the forum. Think of it as "spring break." I've been on here more than I had planned to be, but the opportunity to learn has been very good! I'm probably a little older than you are though, so I need a nap! ;) Really. Selah*

see ya?
Edited later in afternoon:

Karen, this forum can take up a lot of time! I woke up from my nap and thought my post above might sound to you as though I minimize your "bruised" and "punchy" feelings, as though I think that you can just snap your fingers and not feel hurt anymore. Be assured, I don't think that at all.

Related to the "bruised" and "punchy" feelings while reading subject-matter contained in hostile "anti-LDS documents", there are many OT and NT verses that are important to me. I believe the verses I'm thinking of can shed God's light on the situation and stop the sting of the punch.

Another word that I thought needs clarification might be the word "blessings." When I said the "children literally pray blessings for their enemies," I don't mean that I think the hateful anti-LDS get away with what they have said. Our heavenly Father gets to deal with them on that, but to me, I believe part of blessings is peace and reconciliation with God. So, when we pray blessings for our enemies, I believe we are actually praying that they will get right with God, therefore start acting more loving. It has seemed sort of cyclical to me, starting with the Lord fills us with His love for other people, so then we pray asking for His love to fill into their lives, and then when they recognize they have His love in them, then they love Him, and then us too. Finally, we can't go back in time and take away the hateful words of the commentators who have died with their views published for all to see. I believe that wrongs will never be completely righted as long as we are in this present age, but I believe we can overcome them.

I hope this additional explanation helps and does not complicate an otherwise simple message.
Jesus said, "I in them and you in Me, that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that you have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me." John 17:23

Jill
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Post by Jill » Tue Apr 07, 2009 10:03 pm

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