The Problem of Evil

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ApostateltsopA
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The Problem of Evil

Post by ApostateltsopA » Fri Nov 20, 2015 1:17 am

Wow it got quiet here,

I've finally finished the time sucking horror and can spend some more time here, assuming that is still desirable. Though the lot of you will be competing with Space Engineers as they have added planets and flying from ground to orbit is fun.

At any rate I've been thinking of a lot of the conversations had here and elsewhere and I think that the problem of evil, or the total lack of a problem of evil, is one of the biggest and most interesting gaps in perspective between believers and nonbelievers. I thought this would be a good place to pick it up rather than try and thread it out of the other spots. Mattrose if you want to chime in here I'd love your feedback or I can go dig up the place we left off. I think we'd pretty much gotten to this conversation though so perhaps a clean start is a good idea.

On the off chance that someone reading is not familiar with the problem of evil the basic formulation has been about since ancient times. It asks if there are gods, who are good, and are powerful, why is there calamity and horror and flesh eating bacteria and cancer and I think you get the point.

As a believer I would have said that I'm not sure, but that for some reason it is best for there to be such challenges. Towards the end of my belief I likened it to a novel or video game. We don't generally consider game designers and novelists bad people because bad things happen to the characters in the worlds they create. I would go so far as to say that stories without such characters and events are not likely to be engaging. They even alluded to this idea in the original Matrix when Agent Smith talks to Morpheus about how the first matrix failed because humanity rejected a "perfect world".

Later the Architect clarified that it wasn't the perfection but the lack of choice that caused the failure, which makes one wonder why not go back to a nice matrix, still I think that is an allusion to the problem of free will, and I often see free will trotted out as a reason why there has to be evil.

So to address that, even granting that we have to allow murder and all the other horrible crimes we inflict upon each other. Why cancer? Free will does nothing to alleviate the questions about why Tsunamis, and parasites and bone cancer and the absolutely horrifying historical rates of human infant mortality.

Truth be told, it is the challenge of this world and our apparent insignificance in the universe, along with the brutal conditions that have pervaded most of the history of humanity that are part of what make it so difficult for me to believe that we are created specially. These facts are not 'evil' to me if there is no design or intent behind them. They are just how things are and we are then free to challenge them as best we can and subdue each challenge in turn.

However if they are designed elements to a created universe, then what? Well back to the video game analogy I often play games where my personal character is at a significant likelihood to die. Of course I can usually resurrect or get my stuff back so that in a video game death is an inconvenience. However it seems to me that if I were to believe in a soul, then this life is just a video game writ large that my soul is playing and my lack of memory about who and what I am outside the game could be a design element to make the experience more immersive. If that is true, it suggests that maybe the people who suffer so terribly, as they are all not me, might be NPC or computer run elements of the game and not players. I find that thought terrible, but as a believer I took some solace in it. For a little while. However, that kind of thinking leads to scary ethical territory. I don't dare assume that any people here are anything other than other people.

Of course, I believe we are all actual people.

Back to the idea of design though, what does it say about a designer who builds in such a mortality rate? Would you play a game, you only get one try at, knowing you might spawn into a war zone and die? I have quit games that allowed spawn camping because it was not possible to get a decent start. (For non gamers spawn camping is where one player in a combat game waits where other players enter the game and kills them before they are capable of reacting.)

I think that in many ways the myth of Eden is a Christian attempt at explaining all the bad, both the natural catastrophes and the evil we do to each other. I have several problems with the ideas in the myth. Namely that the god character would be at all surprised about the outcome of the events there. They were ordained and if they really wanted to prevent them, then that tree should have been somewhere else. Of course it could be an allegory for choice, but that leads to two problems, how is sin an inherited trait? Why are successive generations punished for actions by their progenitors. Also why would free will enact damage to creation? The god of this story seems to lack the power to plan ahead and shows very little empathy for conditions it caused. It would be like a parent expecting a child to prepare an elaborate meal, then deliberately sabotaging the salt container and then punishing the child when they add too much salt.

At any rate, is this something any of you struggle with? Does the idea that suffering is intended, and should not be resisted occur to any of you? If it is there by design should we be trying to ameliorate it? If we should, why was it there in the first place? If we shouldn't what are we to gain from it?

I'll stop for now but I hope this rekindles the discussion. I've missed it.

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Re: The Problem of Evil

Post by steve7150 » Fri Nov 20, 2015 7:13 am

Also why would free will enact damage to creation? The god of this story seems to lack the power to plan ahead and shows very little empathy for conditions it caused. It would be like a parent expecting a child to prepare an elaborate meal, then deliberately sabotaging the salt container and then punishing the child when they add too much salt.








In Genesis, God said "the man knowing good and evil has become like us" which I think is prophetic and means that man must experience evil to effectively learn it and ultimately become a true child of God. We learn by contrasting things and so if we only had goodness and love and light we would not truly learn it and eventually be complacent toward it. Human parents would call this, "spoiling the kids."
Christians believe we are in a temporal age and these things shall be gone one day but lessons learned will be eternal.

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Paidion
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Re: The Problem of Evil

Post by Paidion » Fri Nov 20, 2015 10:47 am

Thank you, Apos, for bringing up the Problem of Evil. I have thought about the Problem from time to time for the last 50 years (I am now nearly 78). The Problem has been debated for centuries, but I don't think anyone has fully solved it. Not withstanding, I think it has been partially solved, and that you have already hinted at the partial solutions.

Unfortunately, I don't have time right now to write about it since I am snowed in at my home out in the backwoods of Northern Ontario. I have to go out soon and snowblow my way out. But I'll be back. I have been fascinated by the Problem for 50 years, and believe there is a complete solution, although I still have only a partial solution.

I do not take the easy way out by denying the existence of a personal Creator. I am, in fact, a theist. I look forward to a good discussion on the matter. Thanks again for reintroducing the Problem.
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Re: The Problem of Evil

Post by mattrose » Fri Nov 20, 2015 12:56 pm

Welcome back :)

Obviously the 'problem of evil' is too big a subject to attempt an exhaustive solution on a message board... but I'm certainly willing to dialogue about it. I'll start with a number of points.

1. If atheism is true, then (in my opinion), there really isn't a problem of "evil" because "evil" doesn't really exist. There would be the fact of pain and suffering, but no real reason or purpose or meaning behind it. Such a worldview isn't bearable, but it should be accepted if it is the reality of the situation. Happily, it is not.

2. You made a number of statements that theism is hard to make sense of if natural disasters and diseases are built into creation. For example:
"if they are designed elements to a created universe"
"what does it say about a designer who builds in such a mortality rate?"
"not possible to get a decent start"
"deliberately sabotaging"
"If it is there by design"

I'm sure you are aware that most Christian theists would completely agree with you that the theistic worldview would be hard (or impossible) to defend if such things were built into the very fabric of the world. Of course, that isn't at all what the Bible teaches anyways. The Bible clearly suggests that all such evils are intrusions into a world that was created 'very good.' If someone is going to reject the Christian worldview, they have to do so on Christianity's terms. In other words, you can DISAGREE that the world started out good, but it's not playing fair to insist that Christians resolve a problem that they don't believe exists (the problem of a God who designed a world full of pain and suffering from the get-go).

3. It sounds like you find the free will defense relatively adequate as it pertains to the pain and suffering directly caused by humans... but you cannot imagine an adequate solution to the problem of (so called) natural evil. I agree that these seem, at face value, to be two distinct issues. But, again, the biblical worldview doesn't consider them so distinct. Humans were created to be stewards of creation, so their sin impacted creation (hence natural disasters). Their desertion from the source of life (broken relationship with God) meant that life itself would begin to decay (hence diseases). We probably don't need to get into (at this point) the existence of other powerful spiritual beings who may or may not have some ability to bring about both disasters and diseases (but that is another avenue worthy of discussion).

4. So it is very important, from a Christian point of view, to recognize the biblical narrative about the PAST before trying to come up with a solution to the problem of pain. But it is equally important to consider the PRESENT and the FUTURE. At PRESENT, there is some value to pain and suffering. For one thing, it alerts us to the fact that something is very messed up about our current existence. Included in that mess is us. G.K. Chesterton was once asked to write an editorial on the question "What is wrong with the world?" He submitted 2 words: "I am". That we are messed up means that suffering can play a positive role in putting our focus on what is most important and seeking a solution to our pain. As for the FUTURE, the Christian worldview believes that there is, indeed, a solution to the problem of evil. Natural disasters will end. Disease will be no more. Sin will cease. And this isn't just a blind hope, but a hope based on the evidence for the resurrection of Jesus as a foretaste of this future glorious state. Thus, the 'problem of evil' will not be solved until the return of Christ... but we have every reason to believe that will happen since He said it would and He has proven Himself faithful.

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Homer
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Re: The Problem of Evil

Post by Homer » Fri Nov 20, 2015 11:16 pm

Matt wrote:
As for the FUTURE, the Christian worldview believes that there is, indeed, a solution to the problem of evil. Natural disasters will end. Disease will be no more. Sin will cease. And this isn't just a blind hope, but a hope based on the evidence for the resurrection of Jesus as a foretaste of this future glorious state. Thus, the 'problem of evil' will not be solved until the return of Christ... but we have every reason to believe that will happen since He said it would and He has proven Himself faithful.
Both the Christian and the atheist live in the same world and endure the same diseases, suffering, and death. But one has hope and the other has none.

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Re: The Problem of Evil

Post by Paidion » Sat Nov 21, 2015 4:32 pm

Greetings again, Apos

I'll try to be as succinct as I know how with regard to a partial solution to the Problem of Evil.

1. HUMAN EVIL
"God created man in his own image" (Gen 1:27)
This was certainly not a physical image, since God is not physical but is spirit (John 4:24). I think that the main way in which man is in the image of God rests in man's ability to choose (libertarian free will). This free will implies the possibility (or perhaps the probability) that some people will choose to commit atrocities against other people. God's desire and purpose is that people might freely choose to relate to Him and serve Him. This can happen only if man has free will.

God is omnipotent and all-loving, and omniscient (knows all things that are possible to know. This excludes future events which do not presently exist, so that there is nothing to know, with the exception of events that God has determined, through his own choice, to come to pass through his own power). But He cannot prevent man's inhumanity to man except by overriding free will, and that He will not do since it would prevent man from freely choosing Him.

2. "NATURAL" EVIL
Why would God create earthquakes, floods, tsunamis, internal parasites, man-killing mammals, blood sucking wood ticks, irritating blood-sucking mosquitoes, harmful bacteria, poisonous berries and mushrooms, etc.,etc., etc.?

As I see it, He hasn't. In the beginning, God intended plants for human and animal consumption. But after the rebellion and fall of man in Eden, some parts of nature fell with him. Animals began to attack and eat others, and through "natural" selection, developed the kind of teeth to better suit the purpose.

After the world-wide flood (there are records of it in many different cultures), there was a change in the earth itself. Earthquakes and floods, and other such "natural" disasters resulted.

Based on the understanding I have just expressed, I speculated about 20 years ago, that God had not created mosquitoes as the irritating little blood-suckers they are today, but that they originally sucked the juices of plants in order to produce their young. Less than a week after this speculation, I happened to read in a science book that an experiment had been performed in which mosquitoes were isolated in a large terrarium, in which were many plants but no other animal life. The mosquitoes sucked the juices of the plants and produced their young. (I am puzzled why mosquito bites cause a little pain or discomfort to the mosquitoes' victims. One would think that such mosquitoes would be more likely to be killed, and that ones whose bites are not felt would survive.)

So in general, I think all forms of harmful bacteria, plants, insects, arthropods, mammals, reptiles, and birds, were not created in their present form, but developed into that form, through "natural" selection. God had nothing to do directly with this change, even though He created the original forms of these plants and animals in such a way that there was a possibility for such change.
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Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

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Re: The Problem of Evil

Post by ApostateltsopA » Sun Nov 22, 2015 4:52 am

Interesting, thanks everyone for your responses. If no one minds I'm going to take a meta response, rather than try and address each point in turn. That should keep this more like a conversation. I did want to address Homer specifically in that I have hope just the same as you. Mine is focused on the good I see in the world, other people and a better future for my children and theirs. I also hope to be fondly remembered. I can't think of a much better legacy that that those after me look back and am glad I was here.

Between Steve7150, mattrose and Paidion I see three different interpretations of the events in Eden, though two are closer than the third. Steve7150 I think you are looking at the meta level I was referring to with the comments mattrose pulled out. You seem to see that evil is something we need to grow as people. That it was deliberately injected into Eden.

I think the references to Eden are good, the problem in Christian terms links back to that story pretty heavily. It looks to me like all three of you consider the events in that story to be literally true, and not just a metaphor. If that isn't accurate please let me know. I'll speak of them in the context of a story but I don't want to make unwarranted assumptions.

Mattrose, you took exceptions to several of my comments. In a reading of the story I agree the blame is placed for the events around the tree and leading to the fall first on Eve, and then on Adam. Though the serpent gets a little of the blame, apparently he once had legs. I discount that they are to blame. It doesn't follow from the events as they are described. I'll outline why I see it that way. For me these details are part of why I see the story as a metaphor and keep it, along with other mythological tales, as interesting but not factual. They tell me about the authors, not the world.

The setup for the garden is that god(gods? I understand the word used in the original is plural) has created the universe, the world and lots of life. He adds man, then woman and places them in a special garden. Man has had a time naming things, and is now living in peace and god, to man, is a person who comes and walks physically through the garden with him and with whom he can interact directly. One significant detail separates this man and woman from modern humans. They do not posses knowledge of good and evil. To me that suggests strongly that they are not capable of making a moral decision. They have been forbidden only one thing, eating of the fruit of knowledge. They have been threatened with death for disobeying, however they may as well be threatened with jimshoobalahamomgrub. Death was not in the garden, they had no experience of it at all. The serpent tempts Eve, who then eats of the fruit and sees they are naked. However, lots of human cultures have no taboo over nudity. It is not explained how Eve picked up a cultural taboo, without having a culture to pick it up from. Nakedness in and of itself is not shameful. (If it were then we should not have cultures who do not share the taboo.) Once Adam eats of the fruit he too is embarrassed and they get cursed, and life gets hard.

At a meta level, why is the tree where these people can get to it? Why is the serpent in existence at all? If the garden is a perfect place, then imperfection is introduced in the form of the serpent, so how does it get there? The people do not know of good and evil, they are incapable of making an informed decision. However God judges them, who we would see as children, as though they are adults. Furthermore he makes their sin an inherited trait. All future generations are punished, severely, for a decision they were baited into. That seems deeply immoral to me. Which is what I was getting at with the salt shaker trap comment.

A lot of this boils down to what God is capable of. If it created everything, that would include the serpent, and we know from Isaiah (45:7 though some versions say evil, others chaos, and some other words still.) that God did create evil. I don't think it's fair to call it an unintended consequence. If the universe is created, and the creator is perfect, than the universe must be exactly what was intended, unless the creator lacks the power to enact it's perfect vision.


---
Free Will,

This may be one for another thread, I used to believe in free will, now I'm not sure. The reason is this seems to be one of those things that we all talk about but do not realize we are not talking about the same things. Is free will the ability to make some choices? Is it the ability to make any choice? If there is compulsion is there free will? For instance if I offer you a choice between a cake, and six years of torture. I'm certain you will choose cake. Was that a free choice? What if the compulsion results from life experiences, as opposed to external force. What if there is a chemical imbalance or brain tumor involved? Do natural laws preclude free will? I can't flap my arms and fly, no matter how much I want to, does that mean I don't have free will? My brain has a subconscious part that does a lot of my thinking, if it makes a decision did I have free will? Does a choice have to be conscious, and informed?

That may all be too much, so I will ask only that a person talking about free will briefly describe what they mean by those words. I think that under several common definitions of the term free will, the thing being defined becomes impossible.

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Re: The Problem of Evil

Post by steve7150 » Sun Nov 22, 2015 11:59 am

This may be one for another thread, I used to believe in free will, now I'm not sure. The reason is this seems to be one of those things that we all talk about but do not realize we are not talking about the same things. Is free will the ability to make some choices? Is it the ability to make any choice? If there is compulsion is there free will? For instance if I offer you a choice between a cake, and six years of torture. I'm certain you will choose cake. Was that a free choice? What if the compulsion results from life experiences, as opposed to external force. What if there is a chemical imbalance or brain tumor involved? Do natural laws preclude free will? I can't flap my arms and fly, no matter how much I want to, does that mean I don't have free will? My brain has a subconscious part that does a lot of my thinking, if it makes a decision did I have free will? Does a choice have to be conscious, and informed?








Good observation! The phrase free will is used to describe the reality that we have the ability to make choices. Certainly our will is really not free per se as it is impacted by experiences and circumstances and our own DNA. We really have limited free will or simply just a will. BTW not everyone accepts original or inherited sin from Adam, the bible is not entirely clear about this. It says because of Adam sin came into the world but DEATH (mortality) came to every man.
Re your observation about perfection, IMHO the things God created were "very good" for the purpose for which they were intended for. I agree Adam and Eve had to fall because before they ate the fruit Eve's reaction to the serpent was already sinful. She lusted with her eyes, lusted for wisdom and responded with the pride of life so these things were built in. However it was not a negative thing it was a needful thing that God has arranged as I mentioned before we learn by contrast. We must contrast good and evil, love and hate etc.

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Re: The Problem of Evil

Post by Paidion » Sun Nov 22, 2015 6:31 pm

Here is the way in which I explain what it means to have free will:

If Person X has chosen A at time T under conditions C, then if he could have chosen not A at time T under conditions C, then he possesses free will.
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

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Re: The Problem of Evil

Post by ApostateltsopA » Mon Nov 23, 2015 2:14 am

steve7150 ( I would just call you Steve but it seems we have two Steves, I'm looking forward to what other Steve will write. I wonder how you see the opinions of those who feel we didn't need to fall. How do you respond, for instance, to what mattrose wrote?

When it comes to Eve, how could she sin if she did not know right from wrong? Do you think that our intention matters in whether or not something is a sin? When you say that she lusted, what you are describing is thought crime. How does that idea sit with you? I find it appalling. Do you think we should be judged for what we think and do or only what we do? If thinking bad thoughts is bad, then is writing a story where characters sin also a sin?

Paidion, do you see my cake or torture example as a choice with free will even though there is significant compulsion involved?

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