When was the Son begotten? Ps. 2:7

Post Reply
User avatar
21centpilgrim
Posts: 183
Joined: Fri Aug 22, 2008 11:17 pm

When was the Son begotten? Ps. 2:7

Post by 21centpilgrim » Sun Aug 02, 2015 1:51 pm

I will tell of the decree:
The LORD said to me, “You are my Son;
today I have begotten you.
ESV

I will declare the LORD’s decree:
He said to Me, “You are My Son;
today I have become Your Father.
HCSB

This verse is quoted 3 times in the NT about Jesus.
In Acts 13:33 it seems to be used as a reference to the Father raising the Son. Of course The Father called Jesus 'Son' and Jesus called God 'Father' many times before the resurrection.

And the 2 other times it is used in Hebrews
In Heb. 1:5 it is used in referring to the superiority of Jesus over the angels and inheriting a name greater than theirs. Seemingly he had not this name before the cross and resurrection?

finally in Heb. 5:5 in which Jesus was appointed by the Father to be a high priest, Melchizedek kind of priest.

The verse does not seem to be used to point to an actual origin of Jesus but as a coronation of some kind. There was a time when Jesus was not raised from the dead, a time when he was not but became a high priest and time when Jesus did not have the name that is above all names.
Then those who feared the LORD spoke with each other, and the LORD listened to what they said. In his presence, a scroll of remembrance was written to record the names of those who feared him and loved to think about him.

dizerner

Re: When was the Son begotten? Ps. 2:7

Post by dizerner » Sun Aug 02, 2015 5:05 pm

The Son was begotten three times, in eternity past by the Father, in the incarnation, and in the resurrection. Since Christ is already the Son here, before he is begotten, it has to be the incarnation or resurrection. I tend to feel it's the incarnation in light of Psalm 2:8 and Hebrews 2:9. Hebrews 5:7 says "in the days of his flesh" which had to logically been after he was begotten. Heb. 1:6 says "when he brings the firstborn into the world," assuming this physical world (some say the 2nd coming, but the angels did worship at the incarnation, and at the 2nd coming they are described as harvesting). Acts 13 might favor the resurrection slightly, but there's certainly room for uncertainty.

User avatar
Homer
Posts: 2995
Joined: Sat Aug 23, 2008 11:08 pm

Re: When was the Son begotten? Ps. 2:7

Post by Homer » Sun Aug 02, 2015 5:37 pm

So why didn't John say "In the beginning there was the Son, and the Son was with God, and the Son was God?

I can't say the scriptural support for the idea of eternal sonship isn't there, but I can say it is as close to none as you can get.

dizerner

Re: When was the Son begotten? Ps. 2:7

Post by dizerner » Sun Aug 02, 2015 5:41 pm

Homer wrote:So why didn't John say "In the beginning there was the Son, and the Son was with God, and the Son was God?

I can't say the scriptural support for the idea of eternal sonship isn't there, but I can say it is as close to none as you can get.
When in a father-son relationship is the father not a father and the son not a son? Perhaps there's not the "proof" you are specifically looking for since it is the nature of the relationship definitionally. However, I'd like to know your thoughts on it, I don't think I've ever seen them clearly laid out with an explanation for why. You're a Modalist, is that correct?

User avatar
Paidion
Posts: 5452
Joined: Mon Aug 18, 2008 10:22 pm
Location: Back Woods of North-Western Ontario

Re: When was the Son begotten? Ps. 2:7

Post by Paidion » Sun Aug 02, 2015 6:44 pm

When was the Son begotten? Second-century Christians said that the begetting of the Son was God's first act and that it occurred before all ages.

That the Son was begotten before all ages is stated even in the original Nicene Creed (4th century) which is supposed to have been a Trinitarian creed. Later Trinitarians changed this to “eternally begotten.” (These later Trinitarians re-intepreted the begetting of the Son as being a continuous process rather than a single act).

Justin Martyr, in his discussion with a group of Jews said:
I shall give you another testimony,my friends,” said I, “from the scriptures, that God begat before all creatures a Beginning... just as we see happening the case of a fire, which is not lessened when it has kindled another... and that which has been kindled by it likewise appears to exist by itself. (Justin Martyr, Dialogue With Trypho, chap LXI)
I think it makes more sense to adopt the historic understanding of the begetting of the Son, and then see whether the scriptural passages fit, than to invent a theory and then try to force the scriptural passages to fit into our theory

For example, let's examine the passage from the book of Acts which has been already mentioned. This is a record of what Paul spoke to the Jews:
And we bring you the good news that what God promised to the fathers, this he has fulfilled to us their children by raising Jesus, as also it is written in the second Psalm, “ ‘You are my Son, today I have begotten you.’ And as for the fact that he raised him from the dead, no more to return to corruption, he has spoken in this way,
“ ‘I will give you the holy and sure blessings of David.’ (Acts 13:32-34 ESV)
Some presume that the expression "by raising Jesus" refers His resurrection from the dead. But I don't think it does. For He addrresses the resurrection in the next sentence and this seems to be a different topic, "And as for the fact that he raised him from the dead..." In the previous sentence, I think Paul is saying that God raised up Jesus to send Him to "the lost sheep of the tribe of Israel and to proclaim to them the good news of the Kingdom."
But He answered and said, "I was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel." (Matthew 15:24)
Paul associated this raising up of the Son with God's begetting of Him. First God begat His Son, the first of God's works, thus raising Him up to be sent to earth to bring the good news to the lost sheep of Israel, at the appropriate time.
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.

dizerner

Re: When was the Son begotten? Ps. 2:7

Post by dizerner » Sun Aug 02, 2015 8:40 pm

Paidion wrote:Some presume that the expression "by raising Jesus" refers His resurrection from the dead. But I don't think it does. For He addrresses the resurrection in the next sentence and this seems to be a different topic, "And as for the fact that he raised him from the dead..." In the previous sentence, I think Paul is saying that God raised up Jesus to send Him to "the lost sheep of the tribe of Israel and to proclaim to them the good news of the Kingdom.
That interpretation makes a lot of logical sense, and in the OT God spoke of "raising" sons (Isa. 1:2).

Post Reply

Return to “The Trinity”