Holy Spirit as connection to Jesus

dizerner

Re: Holy Spirit as connection to Jesus

Post by dizerner » Sun Mar 08, 2015 10:43 pm

darinhouston wrote:Romans 1:4?. You must have a different translation.


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Christ was displayed as Son of God through his resurrection with power through the Holy Spirit, but there is plenty of other verses to show this.

dizerner

Re: Holy Spirit as connection to Jesus

Post by dizerner » Sun Mar 08, 2015 10:50 pm

Paidion wrote:
Dizerner, you wrote:The Father alone?

The Father through... His Spirit.
Correct. The verse states that the Father gives life through his spirit.

I suppose from your point of view, this is understood as the coöperative work of two divine Individuals.
But from my point of view, by understanding the spirit of the Father to be...well, "the spirit of the Father", that is, the extension of Himself, and not a different divine Individual, then it is still the work of the Father alone.
I have a lot of problems with that view. How do you handle a distinguishing of personality? You seem to see that Christ is distinguished yet in unity with the Father, so you don't see Christ as "an extension of the Father's personality" but an actual divine person. How do you explain the Spirit of God being described as the Spirit of Christ as well? How can two people have only one "extension"? When the Spirit is distinguished from Father and Son, how is that any different from the Father being distinguished from the Son? And lastly, as we have talked about before, why would God need another distinguishing personality described about him, if the Father alone was enough, a personality that is constantly juxtaposed alongside him. It's superfluous.

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TheEditor
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Re: Holy Spirit as connection to Jesus

Post by TheEditor » Sun Mar 08, 2015 11:00 pm

Surely you can't think that "attitude" fits many of the uses of spirit.


It depends on what you mean by "many". If you mean the "majority" of the use of the words nephesh (Hebrew) or pneuma (Greek), then probably not. But certainly a plurality. If I have the time over the next few days I'll try to compile a list of the verses I feel are referring to emotions or mental attitude.

Regards, Brenden.
[color=#0000FF][b]"It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery."[/b][/color]

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Homer
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Re: Holy Spirit as connection to Jesus

Post by Homer » Sun Mar 08, 2015 11:55 pm

Hi Darrin,

You wrote:
Homer, maybe I'm having a "senior moment," but do you have Scriptural support for this? It strikes me that it is being "in Christ" which connects us directly to the Father and that it is through the Spirit that the Father interacts with us. In my view, the Holy Spirit IS the Father since He is Spirit. Jesus would then by our connection to both,.
Ha! Young man you have no idea about this "senior moment" business. I remember when Reagan was President (were you alive then?) and they were pressing him about the Iran/Contra affair. The evening news was showing interviews of people being questioned about Reagan saying "I can't remember" as a defense. One 76 year old gentleman in Texas was asked what he thought about it and replied "I think he's doing pretty good, I can't remember what I did yesterday!"

Anyway, for starters I would ask the question differently: how is Jesus or the Father in us or with us in any real sense? In Matt. 18:20 Jesus promised the He would be in the midst of His gathered people. Did He merely mean in thought, or sympathy, or a Clintonesque sense as in "I feel your pain"? Or as an impersonal power or sense? Is his "personality" with us, whatever that means? Or is He really with us (and in us) in a personal sense through a personal Spirit?

You say the Spirit is the Father. Is that not personal? Would you also say the Spirit is God? That the Spirit is the Father it would seem to necessitate that the Spirit is God. Jesus said the Spirit could not come (which He would send) unless He (Jesus) went away. Matthew indicated that Jesus, Immanuel, is God with us. If Jesus is no longer personally here, is He still personally here as the Spirit? Or is there no longer a personal presence of God? Jesus said He would be with us until the end of the age. How so?

dizerner

Re: Holy Spirit as connection to Jesus

Post by dizerner » Mon Mar 09, 2015 12:01 am

(Titus 3:5-6) He (the Father) saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit, whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior...

Another testimony to Spirit -> Christ -> Father.

If we suppose the Spirit is an impersonal force or power we just encounter too many problems for me to be able to accept it. Then we throw out all words that treat and define personhood.

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darinhouston
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Re: Holy Spirit as connection to Jesus

Post by darinhouston » Mon Mar 09, 2015 7:26 am

dizerner wrote:
darinhouston wrote:Romans 1:4?. You must have a different translation.

Christ was displayed as Son of God through his resurrection with power through the Holy Spirit, but there is plenty of other verses to show this.
Can you share any?


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darinhouston
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Re: Holy Spirit as connection to Jesus

Post by darinhouston » Mon Mar 09, 2015 9:50 am

Homer wrote: Ha! Young man you have no idea about this "senior moment" business. I remember when Reagan was President (were you alive then?) and they were pressing him about the Iran/Contra affair. The evening news was showing interviews of people being questioned about Reagan saying "I can't remember" as a defense. One 76 year old gentleman in Texas was asked what he thought about it and replied "I think he's doing pretty good, I can't remember what I did yesterday!"
Well, "seniority" is certainly more and more relative these days, but I was crawling through the mud with a ruck sack and M16 as Reagan was paring back the military budget.

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Re: Holy Spirit as connection to Jesus

Post by jriccitelli » Mon Mar 09, 2015 11:28 am

'Exactly the same description as for Christ. The Father raised Christ through the Holy Spirit. The power is ascribed both to the Holy Spirit and to the Father (as well as to Christ himself actually).' (Romans 1:4 and many others) (Dizerner, Mar 7)
'Romans 1:4?. You must have a different translation.' (Darin)
'Christ was displayed as Son of God through his resurrection with power through the Holy Spirit, but there is plenty of other verses to show this.' (Dizerner)
'Can you share any?' (Darin)
To which part are you referring Darin, power ascribed to the Holy Spirit, or to Christ Himself?

Obviously The Spirit is God, and The Spirit is The power of God, throughout scripture. So is the power of Christ also the power of God? ‘Concerning this I implored the Lord three times that it might leave me. 9 And He has said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for power is perfected in weakness." Most gladly, therefore, I will rather boast about my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ may dwell in me(2Cor 12:9) ‘… so that I may gain Christ ,and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith, 10 that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death; 11 in order that I may attain to the resurrection from the dead’ (Phil 3:8-11) ‘I can do all things through Him who strengthens me’ (Phil 4:13)
It seems rather easy to see that the writers ascribe to Jesus the same power as of God, of righteousness, of resurrection (Glory, Life, truth, Holiness) etc. In fact 'all things' are in Christ that are in God and His Spirit. It therefore becomes almost impossible to start separating one from the other, because their distinctions are used one for the other. They have the same name in many instances, and switched back and forth by the writers, as if it did not matter, from beginning to end, to Alpha and Omega.

How would you separate one from the other after we have been taught that we are in Him, He dwells in us, we bow our knees to Him, we worship Him, are taught of Him, Live in Him, are raised with Him, by His power, that works in us, forever and ever, how and who? How, or why, would you need to argue that they weren't One and the same Lord, and not only in name?

‘For this reason I bow my knees before the Father, 15 from whom every family in heaven and on earth derives its name, 16 that He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with power through His Spirit in the inner man ‘So that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith; and that you, being rooted and grounded in love, 18 may be able to comprehend with all the saints what is the breadth and length and height and depth, and to know the love of Christ which surpasses knowledge, that you may be filled up to all the fullness of God. 20 Now to Him who is able to do far more abundantly beyond all that we ask or think, according to the power that works within us, 21 to Him be the glory in the church and in Christ Jesus to all generations forever and ever. Amen (Eph 3:14-20)

How, and why, would we even want, or need, to separate Jesus' power from God's power in the above passage?

Remember also whom would indwell us: ‘What agreement has the temple of God with idols? For we are the temple of the living God; as God said, “I will make my dwelling among them and walk among them, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people’ (2Cor 6:16)

Darin, God bless you and thank you for serving with our troops. You must then be familiar with the verse below: "The LORD is my shepherd, I shall not want. He makes me lie down in green pastures; He leads me beside quiet waters. He restores my soul; He guides me in the paths of righteousness For His name's sake. Even though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I fear no evil, for You are with me'
Who is it that the psalmist is speaking of, Jesus or God?
Last edited by jriccitelli on Mon Mar 09, 2015 3:10 pm, edited 7 times in total.

Jose
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Holy Spirit as connection to Jesus

Post by Jose » Mon Mar 09, 2015 11:38 am

dizerner wrote:If we suppose the Spirit is an impersonal force or power we just encounter too many problems for me to be able to accept it. Then we throw out all words that treat and define personhood.
It is difficult to think of something as a personal conscience being when it is referred to as an "it", and as a "gift" to be given and received, among other things. That's not to deny that the spirit is personal because it is a means through which God and Christ are personally present.

Acts 8:14-20 (RSV) (ASV) Now when the apostles at Jerusalem heard that Sama'ria had received the word of God, they sent to them Peter and John, who came down and prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit; for it had not yet fallen on any of them, but they had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. Then they laid their hands on them and they received the Holy Spirit. Now when Simon saw that the Spirit was given through the laying on of the apostles' hands, he offered them money, saying, "Give me also this power, that any one on whom I lay my hands may receive the Holy Spirit." But Peter said to him, "Your silver perish with you, because you thought you could obtain the gift of God with money!

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Re: Holy Spirit as connection to Jesus

Post by jriccitelli » Mon Mar 09, 2015 11:54 am

That's the difference between Gods Spirit, and the mind sciences or essence, or energy and what not's.

Gods Spirit speaks and thinks, as do most biblical spirits. The Spirit of God is not like electricity or physics, God's Spirit thinks, acts, reasons and speaks. Energy does not think or do any of that: "But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons" (1Tim 4:1) 'Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may know the things freely given to us by God, 13 which things we also speak, not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Spirit, combining spiritual thoughts with spiritual words' (1Cor 2:13)

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