Monotheism, Henotheism, Polytheism

Jose
Posts: 153
Joined: Sun Dec 21, 2014 1:42 pm

Re: Monotheism, Henotheism, Polytheism

Post by Jose » Mon Jan 12, 2015 5:19 pm

Hi Homer,

I'm sorry if I steered the thread away from your question, that was not my intent.

I agree that most of the discussions surrounding the trinity do not use biblical language so for me, the terms inclusive and exclusive monotheism fall a little bit into that category. Regardless, I believe the scripture supports an exclusive view.

Throughout the OT, God used singular personal pronouns when speaking about himself which indicates that he is a single being. I think that God would have been misleading the Israelites for hundreds of years by referring to himself as an "I" if in truth "He" is a "We." The same pattern continues in the NT where we find that Jesus commended and agreed with a scribe when he declared "He is one and there is no one else besides Him" (Mark 12:28-34)

dizerner

Re: Monotheism, Henotheism, Polytheism

Post by dizerner » Mon Jan 12, 2015 5:55 pm

[user account removed]
Last edited by dizerner on Tue Feb 21, 2023 1:39 am, edited 1 time in total.

BrotherAlan
Posts: 189
Joined: Fri Oct 22, 2010 10:42 am

Re: Monotheism, Henotheism, Polytheism

Post by BrotherAlan » Mon Jan 12, 2015 7:56 pm

To respond to Jose's recent post, first off, as some of the Fathers of the Church noticed, God actually does refer to Himself in the plural, eg., early on in Genesis, eg., "Let US make man in OUR image, etc.". Secondly, God usually referring to Himself in the singular is not a lie nor is it contrary to Trinitarian doctrine, for God IS a single being, I.e., one divine substance; the plurality is in the PERSONS in God, not in the substance or being of God. So, because of this, it is perfectly understandable why God, I.e., the Trinity, would be referred to in the singular, for the Trinity is one Divine Essence.

In Christ,
BrotherAlan
"Glory be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit,
as it was in the beginning, is now, and always, and unto the ages of ages. Amen."

User avatar
Paidion
Posts: 5452
Joined: Mon Aug 18, 2008 10:22 pm
Location: Back Woods of North-Western Ontario

Re: Monotheism, Henotheism, Polytheism

Post by Paidion » Mon Jan 12, 2015 10:20 pm

Homer, you wrote:When I hear "persons" I think "individuals" which to my mind means separateness.
Yes, I also think of persons as individuals, and that is exactly how I conceived the Trinity when I was a Trinitarian.
By the way, my UPC pastor friend gave me David Barnard's book "The Oneness of God". I still have it on my library shelves.

Among us humans, "individuals" implies separateness. But I don't think this applies to the Father and to the Son. They have a total union in thought, purpose, understanding, love, etc. Jesus in the exact image of the Father's essence (Heb 1:3), and so there is absolutely no separateness between them. However, the Father and the Son MUST be two different persons (though not separate) Otherwise, who was Jesus praying to? Himself? That question still remains, and it seems to me that it's valid.

Now to answer the question you asked me. I am not a henotheist, in that I do not worship the one supreme God while believing that there are other gods worthy of worship. Not even one. Nor am I a binitarian, for I do not believe in a compound God composed of two divine Persons. For in His prayer to the Father, Jesus addressed Him as "the only true God", saying, "This is lasting life that they may believe in You, the only true God AND Jesus Christ whom you have sent (John 17:3). With that little word "and" Jesus seems to indicate that He is Someone other than the one true God. So it seems that Jesus was a unitarian in this sense—and so am I. But I don't identify myself as a unitarian, because modern unitarians do not believe Jesus to be divine. For a similar reason, I don't identify myself as a universalist. Because many universalists in our day think that all people will automatically be with God forever, without having to repent and submit and be baptized, as all people have to do to be a disciple of Christ.

I see the relationship between the Son of God and His Father as being that of a Father and His Son. The Father begat the Son before all ages as the second century Christians affirmed, and as even the original Nicene Creed affirmed. Jesus was and is the ONLY begotten Son of God. Just as the offspring of a dog is canine, and the offspring of a person is human, so the offspring of God is divine, and no being or person other than the Father and the Son are divine. I see Jesus as divine because He was begotten by God. John 1:1 states that He is "God" but not that He is "THE God". Rather "God" or "divinity" is the quality of His essence, just as humanity is the quality of our essence. In humanity a son may RESEMBLE his father in some ways, but the Son of God doesn't only resemble His Father, but He is another One exactly like His Father. By becoming a complete human being and relating to people on earth, He revealed both by His example and His words the nature of the Father.

A king of a country is the only king. His son is not the king. Yet by virtue of his birth, the son is royalty, and people honour him as royalty.They do not honour other children as royalty who are not sons of the king. Likewise, the Son of God can be worshipped, though He is not THE God. For He is divinity; He is divine and therfore worthy of worship.

Here is an interesting statement made by Justin Martyr to Trypho with which I wholly agree:
Then I replied, “Reverting to the Scriptures, I shall endeavour to persuade you, that He who is said to have appeared to Abraham, and to Jacob, and to Moses, and who is called God, is distinct from Him who made all things,—numerically, I mean, not [distinct] in will. For I affirm that He has never at any time done anything which He who made the world—above whom there is no other God—has not wished Him both to do and to engage Himself with.”
—Dialogue with Trypho, ch LXVI.
Now Abraham addressed that the One who appeared to him as "Yahweh". Justin also pointed out the two different Individuals who are called "Yahweh" in Geneisis 19:24, One on earth was the means of the destruction of Sodom, and the one in Heaven was the source of the destruction.

Trypho believes that there can be no other called "God" or "Yahweh", because of the words Isaiah writes that God will give His glory to no other. But Justin indicates that He means He will give His glory to no other than His Son:
And Trypho said, “Being shaken by so many Scriptures, I know not what to say about the Scripture which Isaiah writes, in which God says that He gives not His glory to another,speaking thus ‘I am the Lord [Yahweh] God; this is my name; my glory will I not give to another, nor my virtues.’ ”

And I answered ... But I shall remind you of what the passage says, in order that you may recognise even from this very [place] that God gives glory to His Christ alone. —Dialogue With Trypho ch LXV
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.

User avatar
Homer
Posts: 2995
Joined: Sat Aug 23, 2008 11:08 pm

Re: Monotheism, Henotheism, Polytheism

Post by Homer » Tue Jan 13, 2015 12:41 am

Brother Alan wrote:
....for God IS a single being, I.e., one divine substance; the plurality is in the PERSONS in God, not in the substance or being of God. So, because of this, it is perfectly understandable why God, I.e., the Trinity, would be referred to in the singular, for the Trinity is one Divine Essence.
And Paidion wrote:
Just as the offspring of a dog is canine, and the offspring of a person is human, so the offspring of God is divine, and no being or person other than the Father and the Son are divine. I see Jesus as divine because He was begotten by God. John 1:1 states that He is "God" but not that He is "THE God". Rather "God" or "divinity" is the quality of His essence, just as humanity is the quality of our essence. In humanity a son may RESEMBLE his father in some ways, but the Son of God doesn't only resemble His Father, but He is another One exactly like His Father. By becoming a complete human being and relating to people on earth, He revealed both by His example and His words the nature of the Father.
How would this not be analogous to a man having a cloned "son"?

And can anyone describe the difference between what person meant to the early fathers compared to what it means today?

Your patience sought, just trying to figure this all out. :D

User avatar
Paidion
Posts: 5452
Joined: Mon Aug 18, 2008 10:22 pm
Location: Back Woods of North-Western Ontario

Re: Monotheism, Henotheism, Polytheism

Post by Paidion » Tue Jan 13, 2015 1:51 am

And can anyone describe the difference between what person meant to the early fathers compared to what it means today?
Did you notice that the quote I gave from Justin Martyr indicates that the Yahweh who appeared to Abraham is DISTINCT NUMERICALLY from the Creator?

Then I replied, “Reverting to the Scriptures, I shall endeavour to persuade you, that He who is said to have appeared to Abraham, and to Jacob, and to Moses, and who is called God, is distinct from Him who made all things,—numerically, I mean, not [distinct] in will.

It might interest you to know that "προσωπον" (prosōpon), the Greek word that corresponds to "persona" in Latin, occurs 41 times in the New Testament. I tried to count how many times it was translated into various English words in the ESV, and found the following:

face 24
face to face 3
appearance(s) 6
presence 2
partiality 2
proof 1
eyes 1

I know this adds to 39. I missed a couple. The primary meaning is clearly "face". I don't think the word was actually translated into the other words. I think the translators sort of intepreted the meaning of the phrases, and used a more current phrase. For example, if it was literally "before his face", they would translate it as "in his presence".
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.

User avatar
Homer
Posts: 2995
Joined: Sat Aug 23, 2008 11:08 pm

Re: Monotheism, Henotheism, Polytheism

Post by Homer » Tue Jan 13, 2015 10:35 am

Paidion,

Thanks, that's interesting. So if God is invisible, and omnipresent, and He appears to man, as a man, as in when he wrestled with Jacob, it could be said that in that case God was two "personae" unless it was maintained that God was temporarily entirely contained in the man wrestling with Jacob and was no longer omnipresent. His "face" was in the man wrestling with Jacob.

So if the above is a good explanation, it could also apply to God becoming man in Jesus and in the appearances of the "Angel of the Lord" in the Old Testament.

Throwing this up for discussion for anyone to chime in.

User avatar
Paidion
Posts: 5452
Joined: Mon Aug 18, 2008 10:22 pm
Location: Back Woods of North-Western Ontario

Re: Monotheism, Henotheism, Polytheism

Post by Paidion » Tue Jan 13, 2015 12:10 pm

Justin Martyr wrote:Then I replied, “Reverting to the Scriptures, I shall endeavour to persuade you, that He who is said to have appeared to Abraham, and to Jacob, and to Moses, and who is called God, is distinct from Him who made all things,—numerically, I mean, not [distinct] in will.
Homer, if Justin was correct, then He who appeared to Abraham, and was addressed as "Yahweh" by Abraham, was numerically distinct from the Creator (the Father), and therefore a different Individual. But if you are correct, then there was no numerical distinction; it was the same Individual who merely showed a different "face" or appearance to Abraham.

Justin argued with Trypho, that the Angel of Yahweh was the Son, the One who appeared to Abraham and was addressed by Abraham as "Yahweh", was the Son, and the One who became Jesus the man, was the Son. He also argued that there was only one God, the Creator, and that He was numerically distinct from the Father (and therefore a different Individual. Justin would never have said that "God became man" or as the song goes, "The Great Creator became my Saviour". For Justin believed that it was the only begotten Son who became man, and the only begotten Son who became our Saviour.

Justin illustrated the begetting of the Son by comparing it to lighting a second fire from a first one which is already burning. When the second fire is lit, it is of the same essence as the first, and the first is in no way diminished by lighting the second.
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.

User avatar
Homer
Posts: 2995
Joined: Sat Aug 23, 2008 11:08 pm

Re: Monotheism, Henotheism, Polytheism

Post by Homer » Tue Jan 13, 2015 1:00 pm

Hi Paidion,

The following sounds a lot like what I am suggesting:

John 14:9 (NASB)

9. Jesus *said to him, “Have I been so long with you, and yet you have not come to know Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?

If God, for whom all things are possible, presented Himself, His "face", to man, in the form of the man Jesus and was simultaneously "out there everywhere", would you not have Two of the Trinity?

The word "persona spoke of a mask meant as a disguise, but what if the mask, or face, was meant to be an exact representation of the unseen God?

I know you hold the early church fathers in high regard ( except for their statements contra universalism ;) ) , but Justin was not an inspired Apostle. I too think there is great value in what they had to say, but after about 100 years they ran off the track in some respects.

User avatar
RickC
Posts: 632
Joined: Sat Aug 23, 2008 5:55 am
Location: Piqua, Ohio

Re: Monotheism, Henotheism, Polytheism

Post by RickC » Tue Jan 13, 2015 7:43 pm

Greetings!

I know . . . I don't come around here a lot these days.
But since I'm a frequent View Active Topics reader, here I am.

Interesting discussion. It was pointed out in one of Homer's copy & pastes that the whole godhead/trinity debate was actually a series of mini-debates, as it were. To get an idea of what all was being considered historically is an EXCELLENT book, "The Story of Christian Theology" by Roger E. Olson; step by step Olson traces the developments.
Otherwise, Homer wrote:If God, for whom all things are possible, presented Himself, His "face", to man, in the form of the man Jesus and was simultaneously "out there everywhere", would you not have Two of the Trinity?
Paidion's (Hi Don) quote from Justin essentially says there are [at least] two persons in the godhead.

OK. Let's go back past the Church Fathers, beyond the NT and on to the OT. (Why is it that so many of us want to understand all these things from the text of the NT and what post-apostolic thinkers had to say)?

What I'm getting at is: If we come to the NT in its context, where would that put us? What the NT authors meant? What Jesus Himself was really saying? Yes. However, did they not have the very rich OT tradition as not only their mainstay, as it were, but was this not their EXACT historical context and milieu of their ACTUAL worldview? Absolutely.

So. if you want to go there --
I present a youtube playlist I made with OT scholar, Michael Heiser.
'Suggest watching the three talks from 2009 -- "Two Powers" especially.
The last vid (Two Powers of the Godhead) I haven't watched yet.
I sampled it and it looks great (and is from 2013).

Michael Heiser: "Jesus and the Old Testament"

I've posted these videos on the forum before. But if y'all haven't seen them, you may be surprised just how much info we can find on the godhead/trinity in the OT! Btw, Michael Heiser is trinitarian.

Post Reply

Return to “The Trinity”