John 17:5

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darinhouston
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Re: John 17:5

Post by darinhouston » Wed Jun 25, 2014 1:07 pm

Of course, Paidion, if these direct statements were made, one would expect a violent and specific reaction from the Jews that would have necessitated an Epistle to explain how it might be surprising in light of the Shema, but Jesus indeed is both fully God and Fully man, and so on and so forth. If the Jewish ears had received the Nicene or other creeds, you can bet they wouldn't have been content with the indirect (and seen by some as evasive) (or clever) responses we do see. Whatever the truth turns out to be, it is clear to my mind that none of the original audience believed anything like what we hold as dogma with respect to the Trinity. Therefore, I tend to question the traditional views of the proof texts. That isn't to say I deny the conclusion as an affirmative position, but it does maintain the burden on the Trinitarian and suggests to my mind that isn't a central doctrine that should be a mark of Orthodoxy.

I remain largely unconvinced to either (or any of the number of) camp(s), but the nontrinitarian positions seem to lead to a more fulfilling and consistent biblical theology. That is more important to me than wooden exegeses or more "systematic" theologies built thereon.


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jriccitelli
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Re: John 17:5

Post by jriccitelli » Thu Jun 26, 2014 7:56 am

Jesus said the flesh is first ... (where is that from?)
"However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural; then the spiritual. 47 The first man is from the earth, earthy; the second man is from heaven. (1 Corinthians 15:46)
It does not mean Jesus' body came from above, obviously it formed in Marys womb, but His Spirit. Or, Jesus came from above.

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Michelle
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Re: John 17:5

Post by Michelle » Thu Jun 26, 2014 9:55 am

jriccitelli wrote:
Jesus said the flesh is first ... (where is that from?)
"However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural; then the spiritual. 47 The first man is from the earth, earthy; the second man is from heaven. (1 Corinthians 15:46)
It does not mean Jesus' body came from above, obviously it formed in Marys womb, but His Spirit. Or, Jesus came from above.
Ah, I see that when you say, "Jesus said," it's not always a direct quote. Thank you, jriccitelli.

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Homer
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Re: John 17:5

Post by Homer » Thu Jun 26, 2014 10:10 am

Darin posted:
We believe that John 17:5 is a great example of a verse that demonstrates the need for clear thinking concerning the doctrine of the Trinity. The verse can clearly be interpreted in a way that is honest and biblically sound, and shows that Christ was a man, but was in the foreknowledge of God as God’s plan for the salvation of mankind. It can also be used the way Trinitarians use it: to prove the Trinity. However, when it is used that way it reveals a Christ that we as Christians cannot truly identify with. We do not have a God-nature to help us when we are tempted or are in trouble or lack knowledge or wisdom. The Bible says that Christ can “sympathize with our weakness” because he was “...tempted in every way, just as we are...” (Heb. 4:15). The thrust of that verse is very straightforward. Because Christ was just like we are, and was tempted in every way that we are, he can sympathize with us. However, if he was not “just as we are,” then he would not be able to sympathize with us. We assert that making Christ a God-man makes it impossible to really identify with him.
I would say the author of this statement does not understand the self emptying ("emptied Himself") concept. I believe Jesus emptied Himself to the extent that He only knew who He was by faith (perfect faith) and that all He did and said was given to Him through the Spirit. IMO Christians error more misunderstanding the human side of Jesus than the do regarding the God side. He got hungry, thirsty, and was tempted in exactly the same way we are. None of this addresses Jesus' preexistence.

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Paidion
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Re: John 17:5

Post by Paidion » Thu Jun 26, 2014 11:38 am

I think the affirmation that Jesus was either (1) a "God-man" ("fully God and fully man" or "half God and half man") or else he was (2) "fully man", an ordinary man who was filled with the spirit of God, in total harmony with God, and used by God as his chief agent, is a false dichotomy.

I appreciated Homer's words. He pointed out an important fact—the divine self-emptying:

Think among yourselves that [thinking] which was also in Messiah Jesus, who coming forth in the form of God, did not consider equality with God a thing to be seized, but emptied Himself, taking the form of a slave, having been begotten in the likeness of human beings. He humbled Himself, having become obedient until death—the death of the cross. (Php 2:5-8)

Messiah Jesus was begotten (came forth) as the first of God's acts in the form of God (fully divine), as God's divine Son. But He didn't think of seizing equality with God for Himself, but emptied Himself of all his divine attributes, and having been begotten in the womb of Mary as a complete human being, He became the slave of God, always obedient to God, right until His death. As a human being, He was fully human—not a God-man, but a human being only. As a man, the only thing He retained of his former existence was his identity as the Son of God. He had all the weakness of the human nature, tempted in all points such as we are, but through his trust in his God, he never yielded to wrongdoing. In his humanity, He had no super-powers. All the miracles ascribed to Him were performed by his God through Him. Jesus Himself said, “Truly, truly, I tell you, the Son can do nothing of his own accord..." (John 5:19) and "I can do nothing on my own" (John 5:30).

So Jesus was neither a God-man or a mere human being like any other human being. In his pre-incarnate state He was fully divine, but He emptied Himself of His divine attributes and became fully human. He continued fully human throughout his life until death. But God raised Him to life again and "highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name, so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. (Php 2:9-11 ESV). Jesus was not only restored to his former divine condition but was glorified to an even higher state as God's reward for full obedience.
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

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