John 17:5

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darinhouston
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John 17:5

Post by darinhouston » Tue Jun 24, 2014 2:40 pm

This has been one of the biggest scriptural challenges I've had in my quest. I find this a reasonably satisfying response. What do you think?
John 17:5
And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.
From "One God & One Lord: Reconsidering the Cornerstone of the Christian Faith," pp. 459-460

1. There is no question that Jesus “existed” before the world began. But did he exist literally as a person or in God’s foreknowledge, “in the mind of God?” Both Christ and the corporate Body of Christ, the Church, existed in God’s foreknowledge before being alive. Christ was the “logos,” the “plan” of God from the beginning, and he became flesh only when he was conceived. It is Trinitarian bias that causes people to read an actual physical existence into this verse rather than a figurative existence in the mind of God. When 2 Timothy 1:9 says that each Christian was given grace “... before the beginning of time,” no one tries to prove that we were actually alive with God back then. Everyone acknowledges that we were “in the mind of God,” i.e., in God’s foreknowledge. The same is true of Jesus Christ. His glory was “with the Father” before the world began, and in John 17:5 he prayed that it would come into manifestation.

2. Jesus was praying that he would have the glory the Old Testament foretold, which had been in the mind of God, the Father, since before the world began, and would come into concretion. Trinitarians, however, teach that Jesus was praying about glory he had with God many years before his birth, and they assert that this proves he had access to the mind and memory of his “God nature.” However, if, as a man, Jesus “remembered” being in glory with the Father before the world began, then he would have known he was God in every sense. He would not have thought of himself as a “man” at all. If he knew he was God, he would not and could not have been “...tempted in every way, just as we are...” because nothing he encountered would have been a “real” temptation to him. He would have had no fear and no thought of failure. There is no real sense in which Scripture could actually say he was “...made like his brothers in every way...” (Heb. 2:17) because he would not have been like us at all. Furthermore, Scripture says that Jesus “grew” in knowledge and wisdom. That would not really be true if Christ had access to some type of God-nature with infinite knowledge and wisdom.

We believe that John 17:5 is a great example of a verse that demonstrates the need for clear thinking concerning the doctrine of the Trinity. The verse can clearly be interpreted in a way that is honest and biblically sound, and shows that Christ was a man, but was in the foreknowledge of God as God’s plan for the salvation of mankind. It can also be used the way Trinitarians use it: to prove the Trinity. However, when it is used that way it reveals a Christ that we as Christians cannot truly identify with. We do not have a God-nature to help us when we are tempted or are in trouble or lack knowledge or wisdom. The Bible says that Christ can “sympathize with our weakness” because he was “...tempted in every way, just as we are...” (Heb. 4:15). The thrust of that verse is very straightforward. Because Christ was just like we are, and was tempted in every way that we are, he can sympathize with us. However, if he was not “just as we are,” then he would not be able to sympathize with us. We assert that making Christ a God-man makes it impossible to really identify with him.

3. Jesus’ prayer in John 17 sets a wonderful example for us as Christians. He poured out his heart to his Father, “the only true God” (John 17:3), and prayed that the prophecies of the Old Testament about him would be fulfilled.

4. For Christ’s relation to the Plan of God, see notes on John 1:1. For more on Christ in God’s foreknowledge, see the note on John 8:58b.

Op. cit., Racovian Catechism, pp. 144–146; Snedeker, op. cit., Our Heavenly Father Has No Equals, pp. 424 and 425.

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TheEditor
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Re: John 17:5

Post by TheEditor » Tue Jun 24, 2014 4:58 pm

Hi Darin,

Thanks for that excerpt. Did you ever get the Barclay comments on the Logos I sent you a while back? By the way, does the book you are reading treat John 1:18? Specifically the word monogenes and also the rendering of the passage? Many ancient manuscripts render it differently from "only-begotten son" which is reflected in the following translations:

God no one has ever seen. The only-begotten God, Who is in the bosom of the Father, He unfolds Him." (CLV)
No one has ever seen God; the only God, who is at the Father's side, he has made him known. (ESV)
No one has ever seen God; it is the divine Only Son, who leans upon his Father's breast, that has made him known. (GSNT)
No one has ever seen God. The unique God, who is close to the Father's side, has revealed him. (ISV)
Nobody has ever seen God, but God has been unfolded by the divine One, the only Son, who lies upon the Father's breast. (Moffatt NT)
No man hath ever seen God; the only begotten God, he who is in the bosom of his Father, he hath declared [him]. (Murdock)
No one, hath seen, God, at any time: An Only Begotten God, The One existing within the bosom of the Father, He, hath interpreted him . (Rotherham)

Regards, Brenden.
Last edited by TheEditor on Tue Jun 24, 2014 7:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Paidion
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Re: John 17:5

Post by Paidion » Tue Jun 24, 2014 5:21 pm

Here is the way I would translated John 1:18, Brenden.
No one has ever seen God. The only-begotten God being in the bosom of the Father—that one has made Him known.
Darin, I know that the Christadelphians deny Christ's pre-existence. They also say that He "pre-existed" only in the mind of God. That seems to be a clever way of denying Christ's pre-existence while explaining away Scriptural statements such as Christ's very words "Before Abraham was I am."

What possible Scripture could have been written that would have established Christ's pre-existence, and would convince Christadelphians and others who don't believe in his pre-existence? I doubt that there are any Scriptural statements which could have been made that would convince them. As I see it, the ones we already have concerning Christ's pre-existence are perfectly clear.
Paidion

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darinhouston
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Re: John 17:5

Post by darinhouston » Tue Jun 24, 2014 9:17 pm

TheEditor wrote:Hi Darin,

Thanks for that excerpt. Did you ever get the Barclay comments on the Logos I sent you a while back? By the way, does the book you are reading treat John 1:18? Regards, Brenden.
Yes, thank you -- I haven't read them all, but I scanned them and read some pouts about which I was interested at the time. It will prove useful over time. After I finish this book, I will likely go back and read it through.

Yes, there is an entire chapter on John 1. I haven't read it yet.

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darinhouston
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Re: John 17:5

Post by darinhouston » Tue Jun 24, 2014 9:23 pm

Paidion wrote:Here is the way I would translated John 1:18, Brenden.

What possible Scripture could have been written that would have established Christ's pre-existence, and would convince Christadelphians and others who don't believe in his pre-existence? I doubt that there are any Scriptural statements which could have been made that would convince them. As I see it, the ones we already have concerning Christ's pre-existence are perfectly clear.
I almost thought you were joking with that one, Paidion. There are infinite ways it could have been made clear, and that's a key reason for my questioning the doctrine. The entire NT is replete with examples, almost all of which I would reword if I wanted to be clear on this subject, and particularly since if true it would be foundational for the Faith. John 3:16, for but one example would be "For God so loved the world that he came to the world in the form of (or something like that) a man, and sacrificed himself so that all who believed would be saved..." and so forth and so on. Jesus could have said "I and the Father are both the one and only true God, Yahweh, the God of your fathers." I guess He could even have said "before I existed in the flesh, I existed and have always existed."

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TheEditor
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Re: John 17:5

Post by TheEditor » Tue Jun 24, 2014 10:19 pm

Very similar to Murdock's NT Paidion. And not too far from the NWT...Horrors! :lol:

Regards, Brenden.
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Re: John 17:5

Post by jriccitelli » Wed Jun 25, 2014 7:52 am

"... no one tries to prove that we were actually alive with God back then. (From "One God & One Lord: Reconsidering the Cornerstone of the Christian Faith," pp. 459-460, above, quoted)
Most eastern religions could believe this, and many do.
Jesus said the flesh is first, and He also said I am from above, we are from the earth.
We do not have a God-nature to help us when we are tempted or are in trouble or lack knowledge or wisdom. (ibid)
We are given the Holy Spirit. From Gods Spirit is the wisdom, knowledge and power that Jesus also had access to on earth in His human role as our ambassador, Priest, and etc. By the Spirit of God, that is how Moses and the Prophets received the words of God and how Samson slew the Philistines and Elijah brought fire down from heaven.

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Michelle
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Re: John 17:5

Post by Michelle » Wed Jun 25, 2014 11:38 am

jriccitelli wrote: Jesus said the flesh is first, ...
JR, would you explain this a little more?

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Re: John 17:5

Post by Paidion » Wed Jun 25, 2014 12:13 pm

Darin wrote:I almost thought you were joking with that one, Paidion. There are infinite ways it could have been made clear, and that's a key reason for my questioning the doctrine. The entire NT is replete with examples, almost all of which I would reword if I wanted to be clear on this subject, and particularly since if true it would be foundational for the Faith. John 3:16, for but one example would be "For God so loved the world that he came to the world in the form of (or something like that) a man, and sacrificed himself so that all who believed would be saved..." and so forth and so on. Jesus could have said "I and the Father are both the one and only true God, Yahweh, the God of your fathers." I guess He could even have said "before I existed in the flesh, I existed and have always existed."
No. The examples you gave in your Proposed Version of John 3:16 could be explained away, just as easily as they explain away the clear statements which DO appear in Scripture:
For God so loved the world that he came to the world in the form of a man, and sacrificed himself so that all who believed would be saved (John 3:16 PV)
Yes, God did come to the world in the form of a man, in the form of Jesus, that is God's spirit indwelled Jesus. This is not saying that God Himself came into the world.
Jesus could have said "I and the Father are both the one and only true God, Yahweh, the God of your fathers."
Jesus meant that he and the Father were both of the same mind about everything.
I guess He could even have said "before I existed in the flesh, I existed and have always existed."
Oh, in saying that, Jesus simply meant that he existed and always existed in the mind of God. (which, in fact, is how they do explain the pre-existence verses).
Paidion

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Re: John 17:5

Post by Paidion » Wed Jun 25, 2014 12:54 pm

Brenden wrote:Very similar to Murdock's NT Paidion. And not too far from the NWT...Horrors! :lol:
Perhaps that's because those translators did a good job! ;)

Of course, the JW prejudices come out in the NWT by using the lower case in the phrase "only begotten god". Here is my interlinear of the Greek. I think mine is about as literal a translation as possible.

θεον οὐδεις ἑωρακεν πωποτε μονογενης——— θεος ὁ— ὠν——εἰς τον κολπον του—πατρος ἐκεινος ἐξηγησατο
God no one has seen never——only-begotten God the being in the bosom of the Father— that— has made known
I wrote:No one has ever seen God. The only-begotten God being in the βosom of the Father—that one has made Him known.
I added the second last word "Him" (which is not in the Greek) in my translation for clarification as to who was made known.
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

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