Is the trinity "extra-biblical"

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jriccitelli
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Re: Is the trinity "extra-biblical"

Post by jriccitelli » Sat Jun 07, 2014 11:15 am

God could say something that doesn’t make sense, and even ask us to believe it, but ‘just because’ God 'says it' doesn’t make it either true or sensible (although so many Christians use this line of thinking to reason everything they can't explain, I believe most all elementary things pertaining to salvation and His nature and Godhead have been revealed).

It is not sensible or right ‘just because’ our God 'says it' is sensible and true; something makes sense because 'it is' sensible and true.

This sounds unthinkable ‘until’ you are talking to someone who has a God other than yours.

Abraham went out, as did Moses, and they did not receive the promises, this doesn’t make sense nor did it make God true to His word. It is only right and true 'because' our God will and does fulfill these promises[/u] (we believe). And this is not unreasonable because God has proved Himself trustworthy in other fulfillments and incidents to these two Patriarchs. It is not unreasonable, or nonsense if God has ‘already proved’ Himself able to fulfill and ‘make sense later’ of what He is saying. But it would be nonsense if it ‘never’ does make sense, even later on.
“By faith he kept the Passover and the sprinkling of the blood, so that he who destroyed the firstborn would not touch them. By faith they passed through the Red Sea as though they were passing through dry land; and the Egyptians, when they attempted it, were drowned” (Hebrews 11:28-29)
The faith that was built on Gods previous revelation was given more empirical truth and sensible substance once they witnessed the Passover and Egyptians drowning in the Red Sea. So although lifting the knife over Isaac, and looking up at a snake coiled on a staff didn’t make much sense then, it does now because these things were fulfilled in Christ. As all things are and will be.
Likewise, looking to the Son of Man "lifted up" was a stumbling block to the Jew and foolishness to the Greek. The Ransom works because God delares that it does...
It is a stumbling block to those without reason, “but to those who are the called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God” (1 Corinthians 1:24). God is not going to make excuses for those who refuse reason, choose ignorance and even hate God, even while He was on the cross.
Satisfaction, Penal Substitution, Christ as "scapegoat", Recapitulation, or the ideas of "moral influence" or "moral governmental" (or any combination of these or other views)
Like I pointed out earlier: man can make up a thousand alternative arguments and theories to something all while the obvious one is right in front of them as this demonstrates the wisdom of God and the foolishness of man.
“… the fact still remains that it only works because God declares it and accepts it” (Brenden)
Although God ‘can’ indeed make anything work simply because God declares it, God has also said: “You will be comforted when you see how they live. Then you will know that everything I have done was done for a reason" declares the Almighty LORD” Ezekiel 14:23 Gods Word (or not done in vanity, or without cause, without payment, or which cost me nothing)

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TheEditor
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Re: Is the trinity "extra-biblical"

Post by TheEditor » Sat Jun 07, 2014 1:22 pm

Hi Jr,

Don't take this the wrong way, but it was this kind of reasoning (the kind in your post) that kept me a JW for as long as I was. A seeming inability to recognize that there may not always be logical answers to every theological question. The JWs have a lovely way of presenting most of their beliefs couched in reason and logic. However, one pivotal teaching, slightly pulled from it's crevace, and the whole framework goes "Kerplunk" (like the chilhood game of marbles with the same name). I don't know how many JWs and other Fundamentalists I have encountered in my life that ended up with shipwrecked faith, precisely because they held to a bill of goods that said everything they believed made logical sense and was interlaced seamlessly in Scripture.

If you want to believe that the trinity is a logical doctrine, clearly and unambiguously taught in Scripture; If you want to believe that the Atonement is completely comprehensible, predicated on some kind of juris prudence that we can understand in it's totality, Mazel Tov. :D You know somewhat of my background. Surely you know this isn't my first turn on this ride. I don't want to buy any more tokens. :lol:

Regards, Brenden.
[color=#0000FF][b]"It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery."[/b][/color]

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jriccitelli
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Re: Is the trinity "extra-biblical"

Post by jriccitelli » Thu Jun 19, 2014 12:27 am

I noticed you were online Brenden, and that there were unanswered questions in this thread. Maybe someone else could answer but you said; “The JWs have a lovely way of presenting most of their beliefs couched in reason and logic”, I personally cannot recall this actually happening in a conversation I had with a Witness. As lovely as they are as people, the arguments never struck me a logical (I might add that sadly far too few Trinitarians ‘have a way of presenting their beliefs couched in reason and logic, also)

I often asked Mormons and JWs the same question; Who is ‘your’ Lord and Savior?

At the beginning of this thread I posed these two points:
"... And there is no other God besides Me, a righteous God and a Savior; There is none except Me" (Isaiah 45:21)
"... for today in the city of David there has been born for you a Savior, who is Christ the Lord" (Luke 2:11)

So 'who' is your Savior?

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Re: Is the trinity "extra-biblical"

Post by jriccitelli » Sat Dec 20, 2014 3:27 pm

Totally true, JR, that the Body of Christ is one entity, and people from two different groups, Jew and Gentile, form that one body. However, no one ever refers to that one body as "he". So I think my point still stands...' (from the thread Re: What is the meaning and purpose of life?)
'Or do you not know that the one who joins himself to a prostitute is one body with her? For He says, "THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH." 17 But the one who joins himself to the Lord is one spirit with Him' (1COR 6:16)
'For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh'? (MATT 19:5)
'... just as Christ also does the church, 30 because we are members of His body' (Eph 5:30)
We are the body, He is the Body, same thing, same body. We are in all in Him, They are all in Him: Him who is God.
The Dichotomy and Trichotomy is spoken of, and demanded by scripture. In a number of angles. Otherwise you cannot understand you in Him.

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Michelle
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Re: Is the trinity "extra-biblical"

Post by Michelle » Sat Dec 20, 2014 4:19 pm

Totally true, JR, that the Body of Christ is one entity, and people from two different groups, Jew and Gentile, form that one body. However, no one ever refers to that one body as "he". So I think my point still stands...' (from the thread Re: What is the meaning and purpose of life?)
Lots of people refer to the Body of Christ as "she".

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Re: Is the trinity "extra-biblical"

Post by Paidion » Sat Dec 20, 2014 6:44 pm

JR wrote:'Or do you not know that the one who joins himself to a prostitute is one body with her? For He says, "THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH." 17 But the one who joins himself to the Lord is one spirit with Him' (1COR 6:16)
'For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh'? (MATT 19:5)
'... just as Christ also does the church, 30 because we are members of His body' (Eph 5:30)
We are the body, He is the Body, same thing, same body. We are in all in Him, They are all in Him: Him who is God.
The Dichotomy and Trichotomy is spoken of, and demanded by scripture. In a number of angles. Otherwise you cannot understand you in Him.
You still haven't addressed my main point, JR. That is, none the unities you've brought up in previous posts (other than the Trinity) are ever referred to as "he". The same thing applies to the unities you mention in this post.

1. A man and his wife become one flesh. Is that one flesh ever referred to as "he"? That one flesh COULD be referred to as "it", while each individual of that marriage is referred to as "he" or "she".

2. We are the body. Are we, as a body, ever referred to as "he"? The body COULD be referred to as "it", while any individual in that body is referred to as "he" or "she".

3.The Trinitarian position is that there is one God compounded as three Persons, known as "The Trinity": Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Though every individual in that one God can be referrred to as "He", how can the Trinity itself be referred to as "He"? Though it would make sense to refer to the Trinity as "It".
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Re: Is the trinity "extra-biblical"

Post by Paidion » Sat Dec 20, 2014 6:46 pm

Lots of people refer to the Body of Christ as "she".
Interesting, Michelle. I have never encountered anyone who did so (though I've heard, of course, the BRIDE of Christ referred to as "she", but then "bride of Christ" is figurative language). I have also encounted men who referred to their automobile as "she".
Paidion

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Re: Is the trinity "extra-biblical"

Post by jriccitelli » Sat Dec 20, 2014 11:40 pm

I was going to underline the her in 1COR 6:16, but I suspected that some would see it anyways, and that the same could be said for the Church. Good connection Michelle, her or him defines a single person, yet they are sometimes comprised of more than one person in scripture. Gods way.

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Re: Is the trinity "extra-biblical"

Post by darinhouston » Sun Dec 21, 2014 8:48 am

I thought I'd throw this into the mix. It's going around facebook. I'll put it in a separate topic for separate discussion.


http://www.thegospelcoalition.org/blogs ... us-is-god/


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Re: Is the trinity "extra-biblical"

Post by Paidion » Sun Dec 21, 2014 11:25 am

I was going to underline the her in 1COR 6:16, but I suspected that some would see it anyways, and that the same could be said for the Church.
Are you saying, JR, that because "she" is used in reference to a prostitute in 1 COR 6:16 who is ONE of the members of an unholy union, that this somehow implies that the Church can be called "she"?
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

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