Is the trinity "extra-biblical"

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jriccitelli
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Re: Is the trinity "extra-biblical"

Post by jriccitelli » Wed Jun 04, 2014 7:48 am

I never found the arguments in opposition to the trinity difficult to disarm, nor the ones for it difficult, so I didn’t feel 'I' was ever fighting (as in tooth and nail). Being a rather simple conclusion, it still seems odd to me that so many would fight 'so hard to oppose it'. It is a simple doctrine, just stigmatized by a lot of bad arguments. Both sides are responsible for making this ‘seem’ difficult. In fact the bad arguments themselves, both for and against, are precisely what makes this difficult to comprehend. Gods Word is not necessarily asking us to comprehend everything as much as it is asking us to believe. At the same time Gods Word is expressing most all the things we are asked to believe quite plainly, often repeatedly, and with logical reasoning.

The “All ye are Gods” verse is very simple to discern, if one just looks at the psalm 82 verse 7 ("You are gods… Nevertheless you will die like men…”, if they were real gods, they would not die)

I do not know ‘why’ I would shut off the engineer’s brain. I know you mean that we should be spirit filled and focus on the heart, but for many people the mind is the heart. I came to Christ because He made sense, more sense than anything I had ever come across before. A lot of people like me are tired and saddened by Christians whose knowledge, concern and thoughts of God are an inch deep. Many of us are in need of things that agree, make sense, and have logical conclusions. These logical conclusions say things like; don’t sin because sin ruins everything / Jesus died on a cross, if His death did not symbolically match the record of the sacrifices for sin, I would be lost.

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TheEditor
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Re: Is the trinity "extra-biblical"

Post by TheEditor » Wed Jun 04, 2014 11:20 am

Hi JR,

You wrote:

I never found the arguments in opposition to the trinity difficult to disarm, nor the ones for it difficult, so I didn’t feel 'I' was ever fighting (as in tooth and nail). Being a rather simple conclusion, it still seems odd to me that so many would fight 'so hard to oppose it'. It is a simple doctrine, just stigmatized by a lot of bad arguments.


Mazel Tov.... :D

The “All ye are Gods” verse is very simple to discern, if one just looks at the psalm 82 verse 7 ("You are gods… Nevertheless you will die like men…”, if they were real gods, they would not die)


I was being a bit facetious. This is what I meant about turning off the engineer's brain.... :lol:

I do not know ‘why’ I would shut off the engineer’s brain. I know you mean that we should be spirit filled and focus on the heart, but for many people the mind is the heart. I came to Christ because He made sense, more sense than anything I had ever come across before. A lot of people like me are tired and saddened by Christians whose knowledge, concern and thoughts of God are an inch deep. Many of us are in need of things that agree, make sense, and have logical conclusions. These logical conclusions say things like; don’t sin because sin ruins everything / Jesus died on a cross, if His death did not symbolically match the record of the sacrifices for sin, I would be lost.


I am not sure what to walk away from with this statement. Are you saying that people with non-trintarian leanings, whatever their stripes are "non-thinkers" with only "one-inch-deep" reasoning abitlities? There is nothing wrong with logical conclusions, but most of us use logic to come to a conclusion that makes sense. Most of my arguments with trinitarians when I was a JW and cared abnout such things, no matter how well versed the trinitarians were in the doctrine (and I set my sights on clergymen because I enjoyed the argument) ended with them saying "Some things of God are a mystery". Really? No doubt this statement is true, since no human can maintain such an idea unless one is a lawyer. Usually, the reasonable person will admit that it is a mystery.

And what exactly is the "deep" part of "Christ died to save sinners. Of these I am foremost"? Isn't this the real basis for forgiveness? How deep is that? Isn't the fact that the Ransom works (however that is since there are at least 5 different views) simply because God declares that it does, not because it "symbolically match[ed] the record of the sacrifices for sin"?

Regards, Brenden.
[color=#0000FF][b]"It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery."[/b][/color]

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Re: Is the trinity "extra-biblical"

Post by Ryan07 » Wed Jun 04, 2014 10:19 pm

The people posting here are on another level than the Christians I encounter.
For example the phrase that irks me the most is, "Jesus is God!" Now I am not denying the divinity of Jesus. I just wonder: if we were supposed to say that wouldn't he have taught us to?
So we have John 20:My Lord and My God!
Then at the end of John 20 it says: But these are written that you might believe Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God.

It doesn't say, But this is written so that you might run around shouting, JESUS IS GOD!
And then when people ask you how? you say, Because of the trinity! and compare the Godhead to water in three forms and other such things.

But when I try to show people that maybe saying 'Jesus is God' isn't the best way to describe the phenomenon they act like I am denying the trinity(which I don't feel that I am), or that I am denying that Jesus is God. I am merely appealing that people express the divinity of Jesus is more subtle forms like it is done in the NT.

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Re: Is the trinity "extra-biblical"

Post by jriccitelli » Thu Jun 05, 2014 12:39 am

Are you saying that people with non-Trinitarian leanings... are "non-thinkers" with only "one-inch-deep" reasoning abilities? (Brenden)
(As much as I might think such things from time to time, this is 'not' what I believe)
My comment was actually unrelated initially to the Trinitarian issue, and a response to specifically to “turning off the engineer's brain”. So I was ‘not’ saying “people with non-Trinitarian leanings, whatever their stripes are "non-thinkers" with only "one-inch-deep" reasoning abilities”.

I pondered over my own statement, and no, I have never espoused this kind of judgment on 'all' non-trins, and neither to all of ‘any’ particular persuasion ('although' non-thinkers are plentiful and can belong to ‘any’ and all groups)
I would note that I criticized: "Christians’ whose knowledge, concern and thoughts of God are an inch deep”. And I would note that those “whose knowledge, concern and thoughts of God are an inch deep” are those who choose to be, and do so (in the sense of; “those who have ears to hear”, will do so).
"Some things of God are a mystery"
Although this is a saying that makes me cringe, and I wish I could call or visit (radio apologists, and pulpit clergymen) and set straight people who say this in reference to the trinity (especially), most often Catholic apologists and such. There is plenty that remains a mystery, but "The secret things belong to the LORD our God, but the things revealed belong to us and to our sons forever” (including Jesus' Divinity. Note, Paul in Colossians, etc). I believe that all things necessary to salvation have been revealed. I pasted together a number of tract/teaching materials many years ago specifically for JWs, and used them in witnessing to witnesses. A couple of these tracts I made dealt specifically with the principle surrounding God’s 'reserved' revelation. Or in other words; the mysteries, the rhetorical questions, the things that He asked that were obvious yet only perceived by those seeking truth, or God. There is a big element of test, discerning and revealing of heart infused in the Gospel (and scripture as a whole); ‘He said, "Go, and tell this people: 'Keep on listening, but do not perceive; Keep on looking, but do not understand” (Isaiah 6:9). The Gospel divides and weighs the heart, it discerns our spirit and reveals men’s hearts. This is probably going into another subject, and I am running out of time.
And what exactly is the "deep" part of "Christ died to save sinners (Brenden)
The Atonement is the second most crucial doctrine affected by the deity of Christ. The revelation of His Deity greatly effects the Atonement, its power, and its logical application to the Law and our predicament.
... not because it "symbolically match[ed] the record of the sacrifices for sin"?
If we, humans, put to death our Savior (not to mention our King and Lord) then at that point we would be hopelessly, absolutely lost, and without a savior (not simply without hope as the disciples felt, but as humans who rejected and crucified their Savior). Completely in danger of the wrath of God, over killing His only Son. Yet, if it were not for the fact that Jesus Himself was declared the Lamb of God, and that this all matched up with the fulfillment of prophecy, the law, and sacrifices then we would ll be in very grave danger. The predictions, parallels and resurrection allow us affirmation that God had made a way out of this predicament because He planned it (if we believe), otherwise man is in terrible danger. The Atonement,and the fact of Jesus being God, the Son makes sense judicially and removes the Father from the act of killing a separate person.

(I do not feel consideration of such as the proceeding is something only an engineer could discern, as Jesus himself gave a story of just this scenario (and what the land owner would do)
Please Brenden, you have valid points and I think you are sincere and honest. I am just arguing for what i believe, I also like your humor and good nature.

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Is the trinity "extra-biblical"

Post by darinhouston » Thu Jun 05, 2014 12:24 pm

By the way I'm an engineer. ;)


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Re: Is the trinity "extra-biblical"

Post by Paidion » Thu Jun 05, 2014 2:56 pm

You're an engineer, Darin? Does that mean your brain is turned off by JR? ;)
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Re: Is the trinity "extra-biblical"

Post by TheEditor » Thu Jun 05, 2014 3:22 pm

Hi JR,

You wrote:

Please Brenden, you have valid points and I think you are sincere and honest. I am just arguing for what i believe, I also like your humor and good nature.


I never thought otherwise JR :)

Of course, as you know, there are several views of the Atonement, and the "quality of infinity" in Jesus' sacrafice was haggled over many centuries ago. One more creed to rally around I suppose. But I digress.

The significance of the word "antilytron" comes into play. I don't know that Jesus in the flesh needed to be any more than Adam was to satisfy this word. I believe that he was more than Adam was in the flesh, as he performed miracles and such. But did he "need" to be more to satisfy the "corresponding ransom" of what Adam lost? That is, assuming one believes in substitutionary atonement?

Yet, if it were not for the fact that Jesus Himself was declared the Lamb of God, and that this all matched up with the fulfillment of prophecy, the law, and sacrifices then we would ll be in very grave danger.


Yes, Jesus was declared the Lamb of God. All of this works precisely because God "declares it". "He calls that which is not as though it is". As I have said, the Ransom works because God says it does.

"And just as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so the Son of man must be lifted up, that everyone believing in him may have everlasting life." (John 3:14-15)

"Moses at once made a serpent of copper and placed it upon the signal pole; and it did occur that if a serpent had bitten a man and he gazed at the copper serpent, he then kept alive." (Numbers 21:9)

Did the "copper snake" in the wilderness, which is a type of Christ, have some "quality of infinity" that whoever and how many may have needed to "gaze upon" it could be cured? Or, did this arrangement, which really, when you think about it, would have been "foolishness" to a person, merely work because God "delared it" to?

Regards, Brenden.
[color=#0000FF][b]"It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery."[/b][/color]

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TheEditor
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Re: Is the trinity "extra-biblical"

Post by TheEditor » Thu Jun 05, 2014 3:23 pm

Hey Darrin,

I meant to ask if you ever got those Barclay quotes on the Logos I PM'ed you?

Regards, Brenden.
[color=#0000FF][b]"It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery."[/b][/color]

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Re: Is the trinity "extra-biblical"

Post by jriccitelli » Fri Jun 06, 2014 7:39 am

All of this works precisely because God "declares it"
Last night I was part of a multi-faith debate group, and the subject was the existence of evil. There was a line of questioning such as: ‘If God said rape and abuse was good, then would that make it right?’

Although evil needs defining, the answer could be argued ‘no’ (and I agree, depending on the goal, etc, I will leave it at that)

Like I said, I love the Gospel and scripture ‘because it makes sense'. Scripture is agreeable, and therefore I believe it is truth (otherwise, I might be a Mormon, Muslim, or something where sense, reason, and truth do not seem to be as important)
At the same time, I find it amazing that the truths can be so on the table and staring us right in the face, and still many will push it aside for some other theory, to ‘amazing’ degrees, as I witnessed last night. This I also see as the impressive wisdom of God, that is part of testing a person’s heart.

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Re: Is the trinity "extra-biblical"

Post by TheEditor » Fri Jun 06, 2014 12:23 pm

Hi JR,

I'm not sure I follow. But I will assume that you are comparing the idea of God declaring certain acts we would find unconscionable, as okay, to God "declaring" something to work, even if we don't understand it? Is this what you are saying?

I think there is a world of difference between God saying it's okay to do something that we through reason feel nust be wrong, and declaring a "process" to be acceptable to Him. This is why I used the "copper serpent" in the wilderness as an example. The Scriptures say it typified Christ. The copper serpent was "lifted up" and the Israelites who were bitten by snakes and subject to death had to "look upon" the serpent for healing. What a great metaphor! Imagine being bitten by a snake and then being told all you have to do is look at that serpent and you will be healed! I can imagine some people thinking, "What? Preposterous!"

Likewise, looking to the Son of Man "lifted up" was a stumbling block to the Jew and foolishness to the Greek. The Ransom works because God delares that it does, whether you believe in Satisfaction, Penal Substitution, Christ as "scapegoat", Recapitulation, or the ideas of "moral influence" or "moral governmental" (or any combination of these or other views), the fact still remains that it only works because God dclares it and accepts it.

Now, how did we get here from the trinity?......Oh Yeah,.....

I don't think that our grasp or lack of it (the trinity) has anything to do with whether or not God accepts our "looking to" His Son for healing from Sin.

Regards, Brenden.
[color=#0000FF][b]"It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery."[/b][/color]

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