Angel of the Lord in the Burning Bush

Pierac
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Re: Angel of the Lord in the Burning Bush

Post by Pierac » Wed Feb 12, 2014 12:12 am

darinhouston wrote:Paul, though I'm still digesting them, much of what you have said in recent posts has resonated with me. On the subject of the Trinity, are you aware of any solid debates with Oneness or other Unitarians who are up to the task? So many seem too weak in explaining these issues and especially in their alternative exegesis of critical passages. James White's a bit of a bully in debates, but he does have a knack of revealing bad exegesis and failures in addressing key objections in his opponents. Roger Perkins had a decent "positive case," but did very poorly in responding to the scriptural/exegetical challenges.
I'm not really one to be in Oneness with other Unitarians! I just wanted to point out your error by using Stephen ... Who clearly put your thoughts back into reading out of scripture... instead of into Scripture!

He clearly states that it was “an angel who appeared to him in the wilderness of Mount Sinai, in the flame of a burning bush” (Acts 7:30) As Moses approached this phenomenon, “there came the voice of the Lord: I am the God of your father. The Lord said to him, ‘Take off the sandals from your feet, for the place on which you are standing is holy ground. (31-33). Like I posted...

Quite clearly this is an example of agency. It is an angel who appears to Moses and it is the angel who speaks. But note that this angel evens speaks for God in the first person. The angel of the Lord says, I am God.” The angel is distinguished from God yet identified with him. In Hebrew eyes, it is perfectly natural to consider the agent as the person himself. In Hebrew thought, homage given to God's agent or representative is homage ultimately given to God Himself.

Paul

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Homer
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Re: Angel of the Lord in the Burning Bush

Post by Homer » Wed Feb 12, 2014 10:34 am

So if Jesus is worshiped are we worshiping God through the agency of Jesus, and not actually worshiping Jesus? And what if our intention is to worship Jesus who is not God, but an agent? Do we sin or no?

It would seem that the apostles were agents, yet they would not allow themselves to be worshiped, while Jesus accepted worship, so is He an agent or is he God? And if He is God, why would it be a problem for Him to have appeared to men in the OT?

007
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Re: Angel of the Lord in the Burning Bush

Post by 007 » Thu Oct 20, 2016 5:17 pm

Actually the angel of the Lord is the pre-incanate Jesus Christ. His first appearance as the angel of the Lord is at Genesis 16:7. Look at what he says to Hagar at vs10, "Moreover, the angel of the Lord said to her, "I will greatly multiply your descendants so that they shall be too many to count.

And here is how Hagar reacts at vs13, "the she called the name of the Lord who spoke to her, "Thou art who sees; for she said, Have I even remained alive here after seeing Him?" Now go to Genesis 17:1,2, "Now when Abram was ninety nine years old, the Lord appeared to Abram and said to him, "I am God Almighty, Walk before Me, and be blameless, vs2, And I will establish My covenant between Me and you, And I will multiply your exceedingly."

So here is the question? Is the angel of the Lord who will multiply Harar's descendants the same being at Genesis 17:1,2 who will multiply Abraham's descendants?

007

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Paidion
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Re: Angel of the Lord in the Burning Bush

Post by Paidion » Thu Oct 20, 2016 9:09 pm

Have you ever read "The Oneness of God" by David K. Bernard? He does a pretty good job of justifying "Oneness." (I, myself, don't hold that position)

You might be interested in the "Oneness—Trinity Debate" with Bernard for Oneness and Gene Cook for Trinitarianism.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G6LXshQf2i0
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

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007
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Re: Angel of the Lord in the Burning Bush

Post by 007 » Fri Oct 21, 2016 8:36 am

Yes, I am well familar with the "Modalist" david bernard and the oneness cult who believes Jesus Christ is "NOT" eternal but is actually God the Father. This means that since Jesus Christ who is a distinct person from God the Father could not have been the angel of the Lord before His incarnation. So again, is the angel of the Lord at Genesis 16 the same being at Genesis 17:1,2 who claims to be God Almighty?

007

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