Does the teaching of tithing turn people away from Christ?

Jill
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Post by Jill » Sun May 10, 2009 1:00 am

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SamMcNear
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Re: Does the teaching of tithing turn people away from Christ?

Post by SamMcNear » Sun May 10, 2009 4:56 am

I really don't understand most of your reasoning in your post, please clarify for me. You say
karen said" Abraham gave Melchizedek-King of Salem-Prince of Peace 10% of spoils (translation considered). Of any "increase" is how I personally believe it goes."
What do you mean translation considered?

If we are to translate this story of Abraham as an eternal principle of giving 10% of our increase then shouldn't we need to give the other 90% of our increase to the king of Sodom. I'm not sure who the representation of the king of Sodom would be today, but this is what Abraham did he gave the other 90% to the king of Sodom.

I most definitely could be wrong but I think too many people are either pulling way too much from preachers sermons rather than from the Bible or only reading a verse here and there to get the Bible to say what they want. I hope you are not doing this, read the story in it's entirety along with other Bible passages talking of the story.

Abraham’s tithe was clearly from the spoils of war, booty, which had been taken from Sodom and Gomorrah. It was not from Abrahams personal belongings.
Genesis 14:16 And he brought back all the goods, and also brought again his brother Lot, and his goods, and the women also, and the people. ...
14:20 And he gave him tithes of all.
tithes of all the spoils he brought back which were taken from Sodom and Gomorrah (go back in the story to see who attacked who and why in gen14)
Genesis 14:21 And the king of Sodom said to Abram, Give me the persons, and take the goods to yourself.

Hebrews. 7:4 Now consider how great this man was, to whom even the patriarch Abraham gave a tenth of the spoils
Abraham’s Tithe to Melchizedek most likely came from an Arab War Custom

The consept of tithing did not originate in the Bible (and nobody claims that it did). It was a well-known pagan practice from Phoenicia,
Egypt, Canaan, Mesopotamia and lands around the Fertile Crescent. It was a mandatory customary tax to a pagan god or ruler. The Roman Empire continued this tradition by requiring its defeated subject nations, like Israel, to return the spoil of the first tithe of the land to them! From a comparison of discussions of verse 21, Abraham’s tithe to Melchizedek most likely was in obedience to this old Arab war custom. Evidently, the Arab war custom specified that ten percent of the spoils of war be given to the local priest-king, while the ninety percent belonged to the victor.

Abraham most likley was OBLIGATED to pay a special one-time tithe-tax of the spoils of war. While those spoils usually belonged to an enemy, in this case, they belonged to Melchizedek’s ally, ambassador-friend, and possible subject, the king of Sodom (and those he represented).

Most of us have been told all of our lives that Abraham gave a free-will tithe to Melchizedek—but no evidence for this exists in the Bible. Many commentaries and theologians give contradictory reasons “why” Abraham tithed. Did he tithe because he freely wanted to give an offering to thank God and honor Melchizedek? Or did he tithe because he was obligated to tithe in observance of an old Arab
war custom? It is clearly contradictory to interpret the ten percent in verse 20 as “free-will” and interpret the ninety percent in verse 21 as an “Arab war custom.”
karen said"To donate or Pay a membership to a personal concern, I do not consider to be a tithing but an assistance in keeping a good thing going and I should hope that the receiving party already has a good handle on what is."
What is tithe to you? Is it a mandatory 10%, 20%, or 23 1/3rd%? Tithe means 10% but how many tithes did the law require? the answer is 3 tithes but what one do you follow and why not all 3?

John MacArthur, had an interesting comment about this and how much the Jews gave under the law. He said,
John MacArthur “So when someone says the Jew gave ten percent, that isn’t true. The Jew gave twenty-three percent to begin with. It was for the poor people, the widows, and people who didn’t have anything to eat. So they were funding the people who ran the government, which were the Levites; they were providing for national feasts through the festival tithe; and they gave for the welfare program. All this was funding for the national entity. All three of these were taxation, not freewill giving to God. Tithing was always taxation so that the programs of the government could run: the priestly program, the national religious program, and the welfare program.”
Taken from God’s Plan for Giving, John MacArthur, Moody Press, 1985, page 76.
karen said "I do not see anything wrong with Steve Gregg having made a lot more money at what he has."
I’m not sure if you are saying Steve Gregg makes a lot of money or he should make a lot of money. I don’t think he makes a lot of money he works for free. And if you are saying he should make more I would say he and everyone should make what God wants to give him no more no less.

Ok I already wrote too much but, Here is a list of all the scriptures that talk of tithing an interesting study for those who want to study it for themselves.
Genesis 14:17-20; 28:20-22
Leviticus 27:30-34
Numbers 18:19-28
Deuteronomy 12:1-19; 14:22-29; 26:12-13
1 Samuel 8:14-17
2 Chronicles 31:1-12
Nehemiah 10:37-38; 12:44; 13:5, 12
Amos 4:2-6
Malachi 3:7-10
Matthew 23:23
Luke 11:42; 18:9-14
Hebrews 7:1-19


-Sam

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Sean
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Re: Does the teaching of tithing turn people away from Christ?

Post by Sean » Sun May 10, 2009 5:36 am

SamMcNear wrote: I think the teachings of tithing as far as it is mandatory for Christians today, makes people turn away from accepting Christ. How :?: One of the #1 reasons people don't want to go to church is because they think preachers only want your money. I know a lot of believe comes from word of faith TV shows, it also comes from the teaching of tithing. If the teaching of tithing is truth then it wouldn't turn people away. If the teachings of tithing, as far as it is mandatory for Christians today, is not Gods truth like those TV shows asking for faith pledges or using God kingdom as a den of thieves, then it is only hindering the growth of the kingdom of God.
For those churches who do teach this doctrine, I do think it stumbles people. It can stumble someone new because it's usually mentioned in every service. You know, you would think they would at least mention some of the things that fall under the category "teach all things I [Jesus] have commanded". But I notice that those are usually the things that get skipped, where tithing is always mentioned. I can see how this would turn people away who are wise enough to see through this thinly veiled scheme. I have also seen this doctrine of tithing hurt people who were in the church. People who were already in financial trouble but were basically told to give to God first. And that means tithe to "us" ("us" being the facility that directly benefits from such funds). The elders who espouse this doctrine say to just give and trust God to pay your bills. Interestingly enough, these "elders" don't have this kind of faith, otherwise they would be asking God for their tithes to come in, and not trying to guilt it out of people. Sometimes leading them down a road of financial ruin.

You would think those who believe tithing is required would read Matthew 23:23 a little closer:

Matt 23:23 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faith. These you ought to have done, without leaving the others undone.

Ironically, this passage is usually used by advocates of tithing. What's more important? Paying a bill that is due or paying a tithe? If I skip feeding my children, is that faithful stewardship? Or what if I skip paying off my credit card bill that was used to purchase gas and groceries and instead give 10% to the local church, is this faithfully stewarding my money? Is it a matter of justice that I fail to pay a mortgage payment in order to put money in the offering plate? What did Jesus say was weightier? In such cases, it's not my money to give. It belongs to whom it is owed. Even under the law this was so (as Matt 23:23 affirms). So why now (under the new covenant) would it be the case that I give to the local church first? Any why, if I can give, would it be only 10%?

This issue is a personal pet peeve of mine because I've nearly been sucked into it myself years ago, and then personally watched others who were very hard pressed financially be told to give even if they are hard pressed because they are suppose to give to God first. Not only that, the church I was going to also said not to give to people in need personally. You should rather give the money to the church and let them distribute the funds. :roll:
SamMcNear wrote: My question is since the teaching of tithing is not taught for the New Testament believer why do we still push this false doctrine in our churches as such? How can we stop it?
I think they push it because:
1. They've been taught to do it that way.
2. They have a stake in the funds collected.
3. They reason that the church (as they define church) is required to save people and money is needed to keep the church going.

How can we stop it? We tell them the truth when the opportunity arrises and let God convict them about the matter.

As far as teaching people that 100% belongs to God being offensive. I disagree. The reason being that "100%" means you must carefully decide how all your money is spent. This is logical and reasonable. To say you owe the local church your first 10% before taxes and all other debts (as the church I went to did) is simply legalism and violates the principle given by Jesus in Matthew 23:23. Nor does it go along with what Paul said about the subject of giving.
He will not fail nor be discouraged till He has established justice in the earth. (Isaiah 42:4)

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Michelle
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Re: Does the teaching of tithing turn people away from Christ?

Post by Michelle » Sun May 10, 2009 9:40 am

Sean and Sam, you make good points. Often, to me anyway, when people object to Christ on the basis that some church only wants their money, it seems like just an excuse. Reading Sean's description of a church's teaching on tithing reminded me that I once attended a church like that. It was supposed to bless me to give even if I couldn't afford to pay the bills or feed my children — and I was a widow raising two children alone. I always thought that just perhaps they should be giving to ME (but I never asked them to). Sometimes I forget how poor teaching can mess you up.

SteveF

Re: Does the teaching of tithing turn people away from Christ?

Post by SteveF » Sun May 10, 2009 10:18 am

Sean wrote:
And that means tithe to "us" ("us" being the facility that directly benefits from such funds).
If find this the most troubling aspect. Rather than teach people to simply be giving they focus the giving towards a particular ministry or institution.

Along a similar line, there are certain ministries which give, what they term as, "praise reports". The only thing is, every "praise report" involves something their ministry has been directly involved in in some way. It makes me wonder who is really being praised. The focus on particular ministries (with little mention of others) has always troubled me. It makes me wonder who's kingdom is being served. I think our giving and praise should always be Christ centred.

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Paidion
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Re: Does the teaching of tithing turn people away from Christ?

Post by Paidion » Sun May 10, 2009 9:02 pm

When I was a young man, I worked in manual labour type jobs, and my fellow workers were mostly non-Christians. Whenever they discussed "religion", they had two objections, and these were the only two I ever heard them mention:

1. They're just out for the money.

2. With all of those denominations ---- all teaching different and contrary things --- how can anyone determine who is right?
Paidion

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Jill
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Post by Jill » Thu May 14, 2009 7:56 pm

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SamMcNear
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Re: Does the teaching of tithing turn people away from Christ?

Post by SamMcNear » Fri May 15, 2009 1:39 am

Karen,
To pay a tithe or not to pay a tithe, and on what portion is one to tithe and how much? Entirely personal.
If God tells you to do this personally then it's Entirely personal.
To whom would one pay this tithe if one were to decide to pay a personal tithe if any?....
You would have to ask God, but the Bible tells us some of where He wants us to give. He tells us to give to the poor, widows, and orphans to mention a few.
I was thinking that I would prefer these funds to be more of a public holding than what is concidered not a private secret matter of church buisiness concern only. I very much disagree with this as a tithe payer, and have always resented the big houses and travel perdiams of not only our LDS leaders, but of their personal families as well. Undisclosed and unlawfull use of tithes rendered by promises made that can not be varified in this life time almost a Priestcraft level mischief. Our General Authorities recieve funds undisclosed and also distrubute funds throughout our stakes and wards I myself see pilferred and just frittered away on the needless whims of their self appointed and unvoted for local budget spenders.
This sounds like to me that you are giving to the wrong thing or cause. Did God tell you to give and trust the LDS leaders with your money? or does God tell us in His word that we are responsible to whom we give? I think if you can't trust to whom you are giving then God doesn't want you to give to them. We are to be good stewards with Gods money. We aren't to throw it to whom we don't trust or cast our pearls before swine. If to whom you are giving doesn't use it for good but uses it for their personal profit or gain then pull out and give to those who really need or use money for good.
My paying a tithing has been a blessed practice unto myself and my personal life.
The blessings from giving often is mistaken as the blessings of tithing. Just because you are blessed doesn't mean that blessing is from tithing.
But to see it just eaten up and frittered away by a negligent lay pretended authority at large sickens my pretended faith in it.
Karen, I think you may have a bigger issue than to tithe or not to tithe. If you can't trust your church leaders it sounds like it's time for you to rethink who you should have leading you. What else don't you trust your LDS leaders with? What other secret are they holding from you? You are right that nothing the church does with money should be secret. I would even take that a step further and say nothing the church does should be secret unless it comes to personal counseling and maybe a few other simular things.

Karen, I'm praying for you that God will help you with these big decisions and questions you are facing.

Sam

Jill
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Post by Jill » Fri May 15, 2009 1:23 pm

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SamMcNear
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Re: Does the teaching of tithing turn people away from Christ?

Post by SamMcNear » Sat Jun 06, 2009 7:49 am

Jill,

I'm not trying to be harsh but Mormonism and the book of Mormons are flawed, I can't trust them with my eternal life. So if I can't trust Mormonism and the book of Mormons with the big things, I can't trust it with the small things like the topic of tithing.

I'm sorry for being blunt but I'm sure it's not the first time you heard something like this if you belong to this forum. I want to seek truth and completely be honest with all the evidence, and myself. Total truth can't be in a book of contradictions like the book of Mormons, because truth can't contradict truth.

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