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The Church Service

Re: The Church Service

Postby Michelle » Mon Apr 28, 2014 7:27 pm

JR,

You started with this:

Michelle and others, please do not take anything in my post as negative or personal, understand I want your input, and it helps me sort out and put into words what I am trying to say


But ended with this (which is pretty accusatory):

Still, If someone doesn’t want to learn to share and discuss the scriptures with others, and someone prefers that believers not practice this behavior on Sundays, then they are free to go back to their pews and pulpits on Sunday morning. But as for me and my house, I will declare the right to assemble with one another, and I will sing, pray, and break bread with my brothers and sisters, and encourage them to do the same with others house to house... “Teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always” (Matt. 28)


Do you still want input?
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Re: The Church Service

Postby jriccitelli » Mon Apr 28, 2014 11:26 pm

I apologize, I rushed the end of a long post and I should clarify. There was sarcasm at the end of my last post, but not to you. The persons addressed in the last paragraph would be those who understand these points, and still 'refuse' even small groups to assemble on Sunday.
This was directed at some leaders and their supporters who have ‘forbidden’ any adult small groups to assemble during sermon times on Sunday, and continue to ‘forbid’ any notion that leadership or service can be questioned, even after being presented with this information.
Note that (I already stated) I am not in disagreement or opposed to sermons on Sunday. I am asking that pastors allow other Church members freedom to make a choice and be able to have their own fellowship service and bible study on a Sunday morning, and the freedom to speak openly on the role of leadership in the Church (maybe its about who is really our leader).

I might ask for prayer, because I have never witnessed such an impenetrable order in Church or doctrine as this one. There is an iron curtain in front of the temple and it is the pastor’s grip on the congregations. Just as a check, try asking the pastors if you can have bible study during Sunday sermon time, and the answer is always very revealing as to their perception of service, control and Church. the large church I now attend allows them and encourages them (hallelujah), but many others in our area don’t ‘allow’ it. I think some pastors could use some education and dialog in this area (I often go to worship to sing, then have to quietly walk backwards out of the service before the pastor notices we are going outside to have Church and visit in the hallway).

This still does not address the other doctrinal issues with leaders lording over the congregations, the unquestionable and untouchable roles of pastors, revered men and cults of personality, misuse of authority, the purpose of meetings and Church, and why the freedom to discuss these issues and others are taken away because of the money associated with salaries and numbers. It seems I am also bumping into what seems to be pastor worship (I just was reminded that June Hunt is doing a series this week on Spiritual abuse in the pulpit, last week Francis Chan was on the radio here talking about these things too).

I would love for my previous pastor to experience the great joy in seeing so many people of his own congregation lead small groups, and he being able to come along side and encourage and train others to do the same (he always lords over all the bible studies he attends or leads and dominates all the time they have). To find out what it is like to share with another believer without always talking down to them as if you’re their father. Instead being their friend without worrying about your reputation, or your salary. Freed from the sermon writing that seems so overwhelming to some of them at times, to being free all week to engage believers and others in Christ. To experience a church service where people don’t automatically leave or go home and everyone stays after talking and sharing. I could go on for hours, but I should know when it is time to sit down and let another speak (1Cor 14:30).
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Re: The Church Service

Postby nancyer » Mon Jun 23, 2014 12:38 pm

I feel very blessed that I have a very active, supportive and loving church and still we are constantly looking for ways to bring more people in as well as keep the people we have. We recently changed pastors (last July) and the new pastor is nothing like our old one who was with this church for 17 years. We do a great deal of community service as well as helping our own congregation.

One thing I do is always take extra copies of our bulletin, weekly calendar and sermon synopsis with me and when I stop at a fast food for lunch or a soda I leave copies on the table. (I know an employee at Jack-inb-the-Box took one and was reading it to his coworker). I also study my Bible while I eat. I have had a handful of people talk to me and it's always been positive. Twice someone has sat with me and talked about their journey. I invited each of them to my church but they haven't attended so far. Several people have said "good for you. I should really read mine more than I do". I invited them to join me, but they usually don't. I figure these are the small seeds I can leave for others.
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Re: The Church Service

Postby JamesFrench » Sun Jun 10, 2018 1:57 am

Walking by the spirit in the love and power and guidance of the holy spirit (not capitalized, referring to the gift of God, not the Father) is the important thing. The early days of the body of Christ, they walked by the spirit. They did not have the 4 Gospels or the epistles even in the beginning but look what they accomplished.

Now, I am not referring to the counterfeit Kundalini spirit stuff, please, but the genuine spirit of God, working in cooperation with God and His Son Jesus Christ, in the spirit and in truth and love.
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Re: The Church Service

Postby JamesFrench » Tue Jun 12, 2018 11:00 pm

JRICCITELLI:

Excellent thoughts. Because of my whole life experience, even I who is for going back to an Acts like "church" was at first thinking "What?"
But as I thought about it, it makes sense. All believers who were initiated into the basics (were not in the room of the unlearned) were able to participate in accordance with Paul's admonitions and corrections and guidance in I Cor. 12, 13 and 14, and all the church epistles actually.

The traditional church is a straight-jacket generally of the holy spirit, or we have the other insane side of things; The Kundalini Spirit, demons taking over. Have you seen the video of Todd Bentley's New Wife with her head going nuts, worse than Hillary Clinton's video of her head bobbing like one of those boobing dogs people put in the rear of their car that moves back and forth, and she keeps repeating "Elephant," as if Elephant is anything important?

So the danger is either restriction in tradition or insanity in unrestrictive anything goes? That is why the new people were instructed on what was going on until they matured.
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Re: The Church Service

Postby MMathis » Wed Jun 13, 2018 2:41 am

Most churches have a person that delivers a sermon during the service. I don't think he should turn the service into a press conference with people shouting questions at him. If he did that, he would not be the pastor for long,

The suggestion is tantamount to Steve turning his hour over to a Buddhist, an SDA, and a Rabbi. I don't listen to Narrow Path to hear their version of anything, I know where to go to hear them. If Steve were to do that, he would have to drop stations because of the loss of donations. I think he gives them way too much precious air time now.

If you think you have a message and people want to hear it, pony up and get your own show or church to spout your version of things. It amazes me that people want someone that has paid the dues and rent and expenses to just turn it over to them and then call them out for trying to stifle their freedom of expression.

I'm not saying the members should have no say so about how their church is conducted, but once you pick your leader, don't try to get him to have open mic night like the local pub. Should there be church organizations, that's a different discussion.
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Re: The Church Service

Postby JamesFrench » Thu Sep 20, 2018 12:36 am

The body of believers are supposed to fellowship with each other and with God and His Son and walk by the spirit, with greater participation.
The word "gifts" in KJV in italics in regard to the 9 manifestations of holy spirit were added by the translators, with no corresponding text or authority.
This has misled believers that the nine manifestations are gifts, when the gift is holy spirit (small h and s to signify the gift of God as opposed to the Father God when capital H and S should be used to signify the Father) which includes all nine manifestations that every born-again Christian can operate; But the manifestation of the spirit is given to every man to profit withal. I Corinthians 12:7. People with theological degrees cannot figure this out, that the 9 manifestations are part of the gift of God given freely to every believer without respect of persons. Even gift ministries are to the church, for the perfecting of the saints. Those with gift ministries do not receive more holy spirit, they just are specialists.

There is a great misunderstanding starting with the translators, as in 1611 and before who had any understanding and experience in how the holy spirit works in individuals and who could mentor others. All Asia had turned away from the sacred (or Divine) secrets given to Paul by Revelation of Jesus Christ hidden in God since the foundations of the world. The word mystery used in the New Testament is not a translation but a transliteration (taking words from one language and bringing it into another language). The Greek Word transliterated is Musterion (or mysterion), as a mystery is not known, but a secret can be told.
In the Greek culture, there was a word for secular secrets and the word musterion for Divine or sacred secrets, when a person joined a religious group they were initiated into the secrets of the body of that group. Satan mimics God in the secrets of Satanism etc. as Mystery Babylon is used in Revelation, again the same word musterion is used in Greek. But that is the counterfeit side of course. Satanists, witches and Luciferians are not timid in using their dark powers to steal, kill and destroy. The translation of I Corinthians 12-14 is problematic because no one knew anything about the manifestations and without understanding the Greek and how the holy spirit works both according to scriptural principles and experience and mentors, problems and misunderstanding arise. To another etc. implies people get one manifestation at a time or only one altogether. The manifestation of faith, to do the impossible facilitates the other manifestations, so if one got one only; faith, they could not do anything. Gifts has clouded the thinking of the church since it was introduced without scriptural authority as regards the manifestations.
If the majority of Christians walked in the love and power of the holy spirit the Devil would be greatly frustrated and his objectives would be greatly hindered and defeated and canceled by healings, miracles etc.

Every church has its pastors, though only used once in Ephesians. There is authority for feeding God's sheep etc. though. Something every believer should strive to do to some extent. Where are the true prophets, evangelists and apostles? They are probably in operation somewhere, but not in the lime-light like Tele-evangelists are?

The sacred secrets cover key areas including the manifestations, as Christ is in every believer.
When all Asia turned away from Paul the sacred secrets were lost and were further buried in religions; especially the Catholic church which totally quenced the spirit of God and dissolved into abject paganism as a system while I believe many were saved through the centuries by faith regardless.
People are told to pray but almost never taught to listen for the still small voice of God or other means of revelation guidance and fellowship directly with God and His Son Jesus Christ. Neither are people taught that they can operate all nine manifestations of holy spirit, which unfortunately is very rare. So called prophets etc. or people that speak in tongues often Lord it over other people and act superior.

The fellowships are best in small groups most of the time such as the home fellowship and larger meetings or events could be organized for specific purposes as moved by the holy spirit. Paul outlines in I Corinthians 12-14 that there is supposed to be participation but done decently and in order, and by course, and that tongues are good but need to be interpreted so that everyone can understand and receive comfort, exhortation, and edification.

The tithe and other matters are still harking back to the Old Testament, while the church epistles (Romans through Thessalonians; written to the church) declare that there should be distributing to the necessity of the Saints, and collections so that there are no gatherings etc. Hardly ever done in mainstream Christianity, as the pastors and church leaders all love to fleece the flock and live off of the little old ladies and their social security checks. It is horrid. Many will have to answer for their lust for money and power. The Old Testament is for our learning and as examples, but should not be used to contradict what is written to the body of Christ.
Most believers are still in a sense stuck in the Old Testament or the Gospels. Jesus was called to the Lost Sheep of The House of Israel, though there are great principles and some statements applicable to the church.

Christianity so called is so off base, as the doctrine of the trinity was evolved and had no basis in the Hebrew culture or the Old Testament, nor in Christ's ministry or Paul's or the early church. Such ideas would have been foreign and incomprehensible, as much of it is today. Even the architecture of the churches is pagan, as the bell was to wake the God's up. Making the clergy separate from and superior to the believers is false also.
Every denomination and other organizations, for the most part, have been infiltrated from the top to the bottom by agents of Lucifer.
This is the age of apostasy as foretold and I so far cannot find one person who is interested in the nine manifestations of holy spirit, other than those already knowledgeable and experienced in all (very rare) or some of the manifestations. All are necessary, to be used as needed individually and together as needed and as directed by the holy spirit, operated in the love of God and in wisdom.

Many will most likely be upset by what I state, especially about the trinity, but it is the truth, look up the Council of 325 AD and 380 when Jesus was first declared to be God and the holy spirit was later declared to be God also, thus the "trinity." Both many trinitarians and unitarians speak in tongues etc. (not referring to counterfeit manifestations). Belief in the trinity is not specified as condition of salvation anywhere in scripture, and in fact one must believe that Jesus Christ came in the flesh and is the Son of God. One must believe that God raised Jesus Christ from the dead in order to be saved, Romans 10:9-10.

In essense, if everyone walked by the spirit in love and learned from both scriptures and the spirit, a lot of the problems would be rectified. But even in Paul's time, there were many false teachers, prophets, Messiahs etc.
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Re: The Church Service

Postby Paidion » Thu Sep 20, 2018 12:29 pm

James, you might want to consider the assemblies of brethren known as "Plymouth Brethren" (they had their beginning in Plymouth).
There are 9 different groups of them which differ only in whom they permit to participate in communion.
I fellowshipped with the "open brethren" for several years until I moved to my home area where there are none.

There are elders, but they do not do all the ministering. No one directs or "chairs" the meeting. Rather there is "body ministry"; any brother can give a teaching, or give thanks for the bread or for the wine, etc. The Sunday morning meetings are directed by the Spirit of God.
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Re: The Church Service

Postby JamesFrench » Thu Sep 20, 2018 6:52 pm

Thanks for your suggestion, but I am up in the mountains in a small hamlet in California, the sanctuary crazy state. I had a small phone fellowship that fell apart for lack of interest. I am considering starting a local fellowship and have several people that may be interested?
I miss the home fellowships of many years ago. But I do fellowship with other believers and we do prophesy/tongues with interpretation, prayer, general talk, joking, discussions of all types, as they are my friends.
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Re: The Church Service

Postby Homer » Sat Sep 22, 2018 10:28 am

Hi James,

You wrote:believers

This has misled that the nine manifestations are gifts, when the gift is holy spirit (small h and s to signify the gift of God as opposed to the Father God when capital H and S should be used to signify the Father) which includes all nine manifestations that every born-again Christian can operate; But the manifestation of the spirit is given to every man to profit withal. I Corinthians 12:7. People with theological degrees cannot figure this out, that the 9 manifestations are part of the gift of God given freely to every believer without respect of persons. Even gift ministries are to the church, for the perfecting of the saints. Those with gift ministries do not receive more holy spirit, they just are specialists.


I am puzzled that you appear to limit the manifestations on the Holy Spirit to nine. What about the other lists in Romans 12:6f and Ephesians 4:11f? The nine mentioned in 1 Corinthians 12 do not include love (charity) which is without question the greatest manifestation of the Holy Spirit.
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