Romans 14:23 and the Christian`s business

Right & Wrong
User avatar
Ian
Posts: 489
Joined: Sun Oct 18, 2009 2:26 am

Romans 14:23 and the Christian`s business

Post by Ian » Mon May 25, 2015 1:49 pm

and everything that does not come from faith is sin.
I must admit I have trouble applying this verse to my life often. The main example:

I might make a purchase that I believe will further my endeavour to run a business in photography. Being photography, it will be an expensive purchase, especially for me! ( :oops: )

When in your opinion does lack of 100% positive faith (backed up by specific guidance) that you`re doing the right thing become sin? Where is the approximate line in your opinion?

User avatar
TheEditor
Posts: 814
Joined: Thu Sep 16, 2010 9:09 pm

Re: Romans 14:23 and the Christian`s business

Post by TheEditor » Mon May 25, 2015 9:02 pm

Hi Ian,

Since the verse in question is from Paul's treatise on conscience, then I would view the statement in that light. I'm not certain that he was saying that every action in our lives must be done in faith. If this be the case, it would seem to get a bit silly. I can think of many daily things that I do not out of faith; going to the bathroom comes to mind. :lol: But I would take the counsel to mean that if I act against my conscience, even if the thing I do be not wrong in and of itself, then I sin. You must be firmly convinced in your own mind that your actions are not sinful. But maybe I am missing the point of your question.

Regards, Brenden.
[color=#0000FF][b]"It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery."[/b][/color]

dizerner

Re: Romans 14:23 and the Christian`s business

Post by dizerner » Mon May 25, 2015 9:14 pm

I believe this faith means faith in Christ's Work, not a generic faith in anything at all. This can be backed up by studying the word faith all the way through the book of Romans. It always means faith in the Gospel as opposed to works righteousness (notice the passage in question was about certain religious activities). So if a religious work is something not done out of faith in Christ, it is sinning, because only Christ's work appeases God.

User avatar
TheEditor
Posts: 814
Joined: Thu Sep 16, 2010 9:09 pm

Re: Romans 14:23 and the Christian`s business

Post by TheEditor » Mon May 25, 2015 9:24 pm

Hi Dizerner,

I agree with your statements, but I don't think this is what Paul was talking about in Romans. He specifically outlines mundane actions (eating and drinking) and the effects these actions may have on others or one's ownself.

"Therefore let us not be judging one another any longer, but rather make this YOUR decision, not to put before a brother a stumbling block or a cause for tripping.  I know and am persuaded in the Lord Jesus that nothing is defiled in itself; only where a man considers something to be defiled, to him it is defiled. For if because of food your brother is being grieved, you are no longer walking in accord with love. Do not by your food ruin that one for whom Christ died.  Do not, therefore, let the good YOU people do be spoken of with injury to YOU.  For the kingdom of God does not mean eating and drinking, but [means] righteousness and peace and joy with holy spirit.  For he who in this regard slaves for Christ is acceptable to God and has approval with men.  So, then, let us pursue the things making for peace and the things that are upbuilding to one another.  Stop tearing down the work of God just for the sake of food. True, all things are clean, but it is injurious to the man who with an occasion for stumbling eats.  It is well not to eat flesh or to drink wine or do anything over which your brother stumbles.  The faith that you have, have it in accord with yourself in the sight of God. Happy is the man that does not put himself on judgment by what he approves.  But if he has doubts, he is already condemned if he eats, because [he does] not [eat] out of faith. Indeed, everything that is not out of faith is sin (Romans 14:13-23)

Regards, Brenden.
[color=#0000FF][b]"It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery."[/b][/color]

dwilkins
Posts: 647
Joined: Fri Dec 21, 2012 2:54 pm

Re: Romans 14:23 and the Christian`s business

Post by dwilkins » Mon May 25, 2015 11:44 pm

I doubt the passage has anything to do with "works righteousness", whatever that is.

It seems to me to be saying that the Jews had certain taboos that they wanted to lay on everyone else as "works of the Law". Paul is clear from Galatians that it isn't "works of the Law" (or, morally irrelevant tasks such as eating certain foods or going to certain festivals that mark you out as a Jew under the Mosaic Covenant) that provides justification, it's having faith in God like Abraham did. The only parallel you'd be able to make for your business was if your former religion had declared a certain brand or type of film to be against their law, but in spite of your new freedom from such things in your new religion you still have a hang up about using the new film. If you truly believe that the film is not sinful to use, then you are using it in faith. Go ahead. If you are still hung up on it being inherently sinful to use that film for some reason, but do it anyway, then you are sinning.

Doug

dizerner

Re: Romans 14:23 and the Christian`s business

Post by dizerner » Tue May 26, 2015 12:19 am

TheEditor wrote:Hi Dizerner,

I agree with your statements, but I don't think this is what Paul was talking about in Romans. He specifically outlines mundane actions (eating and drinking) and the effects these actions may have on others or one's ownself.

"Therefore let us not be judging one another any longer, but rather make this YOUR decision, not to put before a brother a stumbling block or a cause for tripping.  I know and am persuaded in the Lord Jesus that nothing is defiled in itself; only where a man considers something to be defiled, to him it is defiled. For if because of food your brother is being grieved, you are no longer walking in accord with love. Do not by your food ruin that one for whom Christ died.  Do not, therefore, let the good YOU people do be spoken of with injury to YOU.  For the kingdom of God does not mean eating and drinking, but [means] righteousness and peace and joy with holy spirit.  For he who in this regard slaves for Christ is acceptable to God and has approval with men.  So, then, let us pursue the things making for peace and the things that are upbuilding to one another.  Stop tearing down the work of God just for the sake of food. True, all things are clean, but it is injurious to the man who with an occasion for stumbling eats.  It is well not to eat flesh or to drink wine or do anything over which your brother stumbles.  The faith that you have, have it in accord with yourself in the sight of God. Happy is the man that does not put himself on judgment by what he approves.  But if he has doubts, he is already condemned if he eats, because [he does] not [eat] out of faith. Indeed, everything that is not out of faith is sin (Romans 14:13-23)

Regards, Brenden.
Yes, but Brendon it's all in relation to a person's own individual relationship to the Lord and when a person is caused to stumble it means they are trusting in the work they are doing and are thus what Paul calls "weak in the faith." You think that faith is different than the other faith? In the same chapter?

Notice the argument. What the person does is acceptable to God—and why? "... that one for whom Christ died." What makes the action acceptable is that Christ died for that person. That's "tearing down the work of God" (Christ's Work) for "the sake of food" (religious activities). Everything I said is right there in the text.

Consider again the parralelism:

I know and am persuaded in the Lord Jesus that nothing is defiled in itself; only where a man considers something to be defiled, to him it is defiled.
Indeed, everything that is not out of faith is sin.

Being "in" the Lord Jesus (trusting in his Work) means no religious outward activity is defiled, per se, but how one views the act determines it, whether it is. This "out of faith" is not a generic faith.

dizerner

Re: Romans 14:23 and the Christian`s business

Post by dizerner » Tue May 26, 2015 12:23 am

How can you not know what works righteousness is? :?

User avatar
TheEditor
Posts: 814
Joined: Thu Sep 16, 2010 9:09 pm

Re: Romans 14:23 and the Christian`s business

Post by TheEditor » Tue May 26, 2015 1:43 am

Hi Dizerner,

I am confused here. I will paraphrase what I see Paul as saying here, and you tell me where I am wrong. Paul is saying, "If my brother in the faith is made to stumble in his walk because he sees me eat meat that was sacrificed to idols, I will refrain so as not to ruin his faith. I have the right to eat all things, but I will forgo that right so that my brother is not stumbled. By the same token, we should not be judging others as to what they eat, or whether or not they observe a festival or a Sabbath, because they are accountable to the Lord alone." This is the plainest reading of the text. I am not sure what you are gathering from this. "Religious acts" are not even mentioned in this portion; mundane acts are. "To him it is defiled" is a reference to the attitudes that a person brings with them; if they do not feel "free" to eat a certain thing, then it would be sin for them to do so because it would be going against their (weak) conscience.

Regards, Brenden.
[color=#0000FF][b]"It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery."[/b][/color]

dizerner

Re: Romans 14:23 and the Christian`s business

Post by dizerner » Tue May 26, 2015 2:07 am

These are not "mundane" things (not sure whether you mean mundane in it's plain sense or a technical sense; could you clarify?). These are all religious things. It's not just eating "anything" it's eating things with religious connotations. That's not mundane, at least in the sense of common, ordinary or banal. Nothing about this text is about anything mundane. It's entirely about what people perceive as religious and important things. People wouldn't be offended over anything mundane—if Paul walked on the wrong side of the street, or liked to eat fish instead of beef, or if he parted his hair a certain way. None of those things have a religious connotation nor would Paul even bother to write about anything mundane. Ink and paper was expensive and this is one letter he has a chance to write for a very important purpose.

Can you show me by logic or from Scripture any indication that this material and subject is about the mundane? Because right now I see zero support for that in your posts. (Or clarify your meaning of that term.) Paul said this is such an important topic people can lose their entire faith over it and become really defiled (ruin his faith, stumble in his walk, defile him, condemn him, be sin to him).

User avatar
Ian
Posts: 489
Joined: Sun Oct 18, 2009 2:26 am

Re: Romans 14:23 and the Christian`s business

Post by Ian » Tue May 26, 2015 6:03 am

Thank you gentlemen for your replies.

Actually my own concern in the post is not whether my behaviour (photographic purchases) could be a stumbling block to others. I suppose it boils down to this - I see a piece of photographic gear that I think might benefit my aspirations to become a professional photographer. But usually I am not given specific guidance about whether to buy it or not. I`ll be honest, in the absence of a real check in the spirit about something, I go ahead and buy it. But I often look back (having discovered there are snags to the suitability of what I`ve just bought) and think, "should I have done that? Should I have waited for positive confirmation before going ahead, instead of just being satisfied with (and therefore acting upon) the absence of negative confirmation?"

Post Reply

Return to “Ethics”