The Most Frequently Misquoted Verse in the Bible

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TheEditor
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Re: The Most Frequently Misquoted Verse in the Bible

Post by TheEditor » Mon Oct 19, 2015 12:13 pm

I think these souls under the alter were symbolic. I don't think the Apocalypse was conveying the idea of thousands on disembodied souls laying under an alter in Heaven crying out as something literal. Souls could also mean blood, or lives, as the Scriptures tell us that life (or soul) is in the blood. The Psalms use blood and soul as synonymous parallelism at times.

Regards, Brenden.
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Re: The Most Frequently Misquoted Verse in the Bible

Post by dwilkins » Mon Oct 19, 2015 3:31 pm

TheEditor wrote:I think these souls under the alter were symbolic. I don't think the Apocalypse was conveying the idea of thousands on disembodied souls laying under an alter in Heaven crying out as something literal. Souls could also mean blood, or lives, as the Scriptures tell us that life (or soul) is in the blood. The Psalms use blood and soul as synonymous parallelism at times.

Regards, Brenden.
I don't think it's fair for you to be completely dismissive of my point without offering some sort of coherent alternative. I also don't think that the passage should be taken as absolutely literal. However, I'll point out that they are each rewarded for good works they did in life indicating some connection to individuality and judgment promised in heaven. So, I don't think some generic pool of blood under the alter does justice to the text. My point is that these individuals (whether "souls" means "persons" or "lives", etc.) are in some way present in heaven after their death but before the resurrection.

Doug

dizerner

Re: The Most Frequently Misquoted Verse in the Bible

Post by dizerner » Mon Oct 19, 2015 3:59 pm

Agree with Doug, the martyrs are given a robe and say something very specific. It would seem to be stretching symbolism too far, since we do know that altar literally exists from Hebrews.

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Re: The Most Frequently Misquoted Verse in the Bible

Post by Paidion » Mon Oct 19, 2015 5:16 pm

50 I tell you this, brothers: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.
The gnostics used this verse to "prove" that there was no bodily resurrection, but rather that disembodied spirits take off to heaven at death. I think it was Irenæus who wrote that Paul meant that MERE flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God. The "perishable" refers to our present mortal bodies. The "imperishable" refers to our resurrected bodies. "This mortal must put on immortality." Paul clearly taught that the resurrection body is as different from our present mortal body as the full grown wheat plant differs from the grain which was planted to grow it. But the resurrection doesn't mean the freeing of our spirit from our body to soar to heaven. When Jesus was resurrected, they still saw the nail prints in his hands. He looked the same, but He had an immortal body that could walk through a closed door. He hadn't yet ascended to heaven. If Jesus was 3 days in the tomb before he was raised to life, and later ascended to heaven, then is it not the case that we, too, must first be raised before we ascend to heaven?
Before that, the righteous dead are described as souls under the alter of heaven. They appear to be able to see God and the events in heaven, but their final vindication at the parousia and resurrection hasn't happened yet:

Revelation 6:9-11 (ESV)
9 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the witness they had borne.
10 They cried out with a loud voice, "O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before you will judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?"
11 Then they were each given a white robe and told to rest a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brothers should be complete, who were to be killed as they themselves had been.
The book of Revelation describes the visions which John saw. One cannot establish doctrine on the basis of what John saw in his vision.
Revelation 9:
1 And the fifth angel blew his trumpet, and I saw a star fallen from heaven to earth, and he was given the key to the shaft of the bottomless pit.
2 He opened the shaft of the bottomless pit, and from the shaft rose smoke like the smoke of a great furnace, and the sun and the air were darkened with the smoke from the shaft.
3 Then from the smoke came locusts on the earth, and they were given power like the power of scorpions of the earth.
4 They were told not to harm the grass of the earth or any green plant or any tree, but only those people who do not have the seal of God on their foreheads.
5 They were allowed to torment them for five months, but not to kill them, and their torment was like the torment of a scorpion when it stings someone.
6 And in those days people will seek death and will not find it. They will long to die, but death will flee from them.
7 In appearance the locusts were like horses prepared for battle: on their heads were what looked like crowns of gold; their faces were like human faces,
8 their hair like women’s hair, and their teeth like lions’ teeth;
9 they had breastplates like breastplates of iron, and the noise of their wings was like the noise of many chariots with horses rushing into battle.
10 They have tails and stings like scorpions, and their power to hurt people for five months is in their tails.
11 They have as king over them the angel of the bottomless pit. His name in Hebrew is Abaddon, and in Greek he is called Apollyon.
What doctrine can be established from the quote above? That locusts actually appeared on earth and tortured people? That they had stings as strong as those of scorpions?
That they had crowns of gold on their heads? That they had human faces, women's hair, and lions' teeth? That they had breastplates of iron? That Apollyon was their king?
You claim that the souls under the altar of heaven which John saw in his vision is actual reality. Why not these amazing locusts?

No. Doctrine cannot be established from John's vision as he recorded it in Revelation.
Paidion

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dwilkins
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Re: The Most Frequently Misquoted Verse in the Bible

Post by dwilkins » Mon Oct 19, 2015 6:42 pm

Are you sure that you want to say that doctrine can't be established by Revelation?

As far as 1st Cor. 15 goes, as you know we have different ways of understanding the point. I don't think that Paul could have been more clear.

1Co 15:43 It is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness; it is raised in power.
1Co 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.

They are raised with spiritual bodies. If you want to repeat Irenaeus' version of the truth for others then I can understand, but we've both made our positions clear to each other on a number of occasions. I think you're wrong. I think he was wrong because he misunderstood the cosmology that Paul was using as a baseline, and I think he misunderstood the relationship between gnosticism and Christianity.

Doug

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Re: The Most Frequently Misquoted Verse in the Bible

Post by TheEditor » Tue Oct 20, 2015 10:25 am

Hi Doug,

I think you are mistaken here. I am not suggesting that I have a better view, nor do I need one to point out the flaws in yours. What I am saying is, that literal "souls" (whatever those are) needn't be under the altar. I find it remarkable that someone that goes to great lengths to view an incredible number of the elements in Revelation as symbolic, would get suddenly quite literal with the souls under the alter. But I guess paradigms hold their sway. ;) Regardless, Abel's blood cried out from the ground. I think Paidion's comments on the locusts were apt. By the way, I do agree with your position on the pneuma body. I believe that regarding those called to heavenly life because I was raised a JW, and it's one of the few ideas I have held on to. I could never see any good reason to jettison it.

Regards, Brenden.
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dizerner

Re: The Most Frequently Misquoted Verse in the Bible

Post by dizerner » Tue Oct 20, 2015 12:15 pm

TheEditor--out of curiosity, exactly what JW beliefs have you jettisoned? You seem to line up quite a bit with them.

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Re: The Most Frequently Misquoted Verse in the Bible

Post by steve7150 » Tue Oct 20, 2015 12:47 pm

I believe that regarding those called to heavenly life because I was raised a JW, and it's one of the few ideas I have held on to. I could never see any good reason to jettison it.









Who do you think are called to heavenly life, the 144K? Why can't that number be symbolic?

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TheEditor
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Re: The Most Frequently Misquoted Verse in the Bible

Post by TheEditor » Tue Oct 20, 2015 12:55 pm

Hi Dizerner,

Coming from the perspective of an "outsider" I am not surprised to hear you say that. But I'll lay out the "biggies" that the average JW would view as "basic truths" and perhaps this will clarify. This is in no particular order, and does NOT include moral views (JWs hold to a fairly strict moral code along the line of Southern Baptists)

1. Non Trinitarian
2. No Hellfire; Annihilation of the wicked
3. Two classes of Christians with respects future life prospects (ie,. one Heavenly the other Earthly)
4. Only 144,000 are called to Heavenly life
5. JWs are uniquely used by God to carry out the preaching work in the "last days"
6. We are in the last days since 1914 based on an elaborate chronological interpretation of Daniel
7. The "faithful and discrete slave" of Jesus parable in Mathew 24 is found in the leadership of the WT Society
8. Christ will reign for a literal 1,000 years along with the aforementioned 144,000 Christians over a cleansed Earth spearheaded by the aforementioned secondary class of Christians, as the latter class educates the resurrected dead.
9 Satan will be loosed at the end of the 1,000 years to place a final test on a perfected mankind, akin to Adam's test
10. The primary purpose of God's allowance of suffering has been for a vindication of His Name and Sovereignty. This is similar in some ways to the 7th Day Adventist views based on Ellen White's The Great Controversy.

These would be the 10 "biggies." There are other doctrines that have been considered important, but, as with many denominations, yesterday's apostasy is today's revealed truth, and vice versa.

For me, I am agnostic on point number 1. I lean towards point number two, but only because I can't bring myself to a full UR view. I disavow numbers 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, possibly 8 (may believe a greatly modified concept of it). Disagree with 9 and mostly with 10.

I am not a "JW" as understood by JWs.

Regards, Brenden.
[color=#0000FF][b]"It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery."[/b][/color]

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TheEditor
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Re: The Most Frequently Misquoted Verse in the Bible

Post by TheEditor » Tue Oct 20, 2015 12:56 pm

Hi Steve,

Our posts overlapped. I do not believe in a literal 144,000.

Regards, Brenden.
[color=#0000FF][b]"It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery."[/b][/color]

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