2 Kings 6:17
And Elisha prayed, "O LORD, open his eyes so he may see." Then the Lord opened the servant's eyes, and he looked and saw the hills full of horses and chariots of fire all around Elisha.
Ive always liked this verse. In my mind it says that all around us we are surrounded by the divine, holy and righteous. If God opens our eyes to the divine dimension which sits on ours, we will see fantastic Angels, robed in fire and awesomeness, guarding over the world.
If you look at that verse as well as "For He shall give His angels charge over you, to keep you in all your ways." (Psalm 91:11) it really opens one's eyes that there may be glorious scenes of fantasy battles between Demons and Angels going on around us and we not even know it!
But some think that angels and demons are figurative concepts. I drespect that view, but I definitely think that thinking that Angels and Demons surround us constantly transforms the everyday from being boring to being an awesome Tolkienesque environment filled with adventure and God's glory.
Please don't consider me a crazy person because of that, Im just a fiction writer who is completely in touch with his imagination and inner child lol.
Angels and Demons
Re: Angels and Demons
I think there is a lot going on in the spiritual realm all around us. I'm actually teaching a series in my Sunday school class right now titled 'invisible insights' and it's all about the spiritual realm. To be honest, it's my first intense study of angels, satan & demons. It's been interesting.
I remember when I was a young child I was shown a Christian movie about a special pair of glasses. If I remember correctly, a young person found a pair of glasses that, once you put them on, allowed you to see the spiritual goings-on. I can't remember anything else about the movie, but that part has stuck in my memory.
I remember when I was a young child I was shown a Christian movie about a special pair of glasses. If I remember correctly, a young person found a pair of glasses that, once you put them on, allowed you to see the spiritual goings-on. I can't remember anything else about the movie, but that part has stuck in my memory.
Re: Angels and Demons
But what tells us that demons and Satan for that matter are active anywhere close to the activity of the first century? I personally believe Satan as well as all demonic activity has been and is to this day squashed and all done in the first century. I know this will raise objections but I will go as far as to say that not one demon possesses a person today. Sure we see the entertaining pastors of today saying they cast out demons but I think this is contrary to the finished work of Christ.
Re: Angels and Demons
I think there are many cases of demon possession. But modern man refuses to recognize it, but explains it as some type of "mental illness".
If what you say is true, Allyn, then the apostle Paul must not have recognized "the finished work of Christ" since he recognizes even devotion to demons in later times:
1 Timothy 4:1 Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons...
Both Paul and Peter believed the devil was alive and active in their day. This was after the work of Christ on the cross was completed.
Ephesians 6:11 Put on the whole armor of God, that you may be able to stand against the schemes of the devil.
1 Peter 5:8 Be sober–minded; be watchful. Your adversary the devil prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour.
Paul believed that spiritual forces of evil were very powerful in his day, and that disciples had to wrestle against them. That was subsequent to "the finished work of Christ".
Ephesians 6:12 For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the cosmic powers over this present darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly places.
Paul also believed that the evil one (Satan, no doubt) was throwing his fiery darts at the disciples, and that they had to extinguish these darts through faith.
Ephesians 6:16 In all circumstances take up the shield of faith, with which you can extinguish all the flaming darts of the evil one...
Paul believed evil people and imposters would go from bad to worse after his day. Whom do you suppose would be inspiring those evil people and imposters?
2 Timothy 3:13 ...while evil people and impostors will go on from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived.
Whatever your view of Revelation, it was revealed to John what would take place after he had written it.
It was revealed that the devil would throw some of the disciples into prison. Sounds like the devil was still pretty active!
Revelation 2:10 Do not fear what you are about to suffer. Behold, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, that you may be tested, and for ten days you will have tribulation. Be faithful unto death, and I will give you the crown of life.
It was revealed that people would hang on to demon worship:
Revelation 9:20 The rest of mankind, who were not killed by these plagues, did not repent of the works of their hands nor give up worshiping demons and idols of gold and silver and bronze and stone and wood, which cannot see or hear or walk...
It was revealed that demons would dwell in Babylon and haunt it:
Revelation 18:2 And he called out with a mighty voice,
“Fallen, fallen is Babylon the great!
She has become a dwelling place for demons,
a haunt for every unclean spirit,
a haunt for every unclean bird,
a haunt for every unclean and detestable beast.
Nope. The finished work of Christ did not eliminate Satanic and demonic activity. The apostles warned against Satan and his demons, and showed them how they could be equipped to defend themselves against these evil powers.
If what you say is true, Allyn, then the apostle Paul must not have recognized "the finished work of Christ" since he recognizes even devotion to demons in later times:
1 Timothy 4:1 Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons...
Both Paul and Peter believed the devil was alive and active in their day. This was after the work of Christ on the cross was completed.
Ephesians 6:11 Put on the whole armor of God, that you may be able to stand against the schemes of the devil.
1 Peter 5:8 Be sober–minded; be watchful. Your adversary the devil prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour.
Paul believed that spiritual forces of evil were very powerful in his day, and that disciples had to wrestle against them. That was subsequent to "the finished work of Christ".
Ephesians 6:12 For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the cosmic powers over this present darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly places.
Paul also believed that the evil one (Satan, no doubt) was throwing his fiery darts at the disciples, and that they had to extinguish these darts through faith.
Ephesians 6:16 In all circumstances take up the shield of faith, with which you can extinguish all the flaming darts of the evil one...
Paul believed evil people and imposters would go from bad to worse after his day. Whom do you suppose would be inspiring those evil people and imposters?
2 Timothy 3:13 ...while evil people and impostors will go on from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived.
Whatever your view of Revelation, it was revealed to John what would take place after he had written it.
It was revealed that the devil would throw some of the disciples into prison. Sounds like the devil was still pretty active!
Revelation 2:10 Do not fear what you are about to suffer. Behold, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, that you may be tested, and for ten days you will have tribulation. Be faithful unto death, and I will give you the crown of life.
It was revealed that people would hang on to demon worship:
Revelation 9:20 The rest of mankind, who were not killed by these plagues, did not repent of the works of their hands nor give up worshiping demons and idols of gold and silver and bronze and stone and wood, which cannot see or hear or walk...
It was revealed that demons would dwell in Babylon and haunt it:
Revelation 18:2 And he called out with a mighty voice,
“Fallen, fallen is Babylon the great!
She has become a dwelling place for demons,
a haunt for every unclean spirit,
a haunt for every unclean bird,
a haunt for every unclean and detestable beast.
Nope. The finished work of Christ did not eliminate Satanic and demonic activity. The apostles warned against Satan and his demons, and showed them how they could be equipped to defend themselves against these evil powers.
Paidion
Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.
Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.
Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.
Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.
Re: Angels and Demons
A full-preterist has no trouble see those examples as 1st century experiences.
Re: Angels and Demons
What about the reports that come from missionaries where they have cast out demons? Even Steve Gregg has done this. Are they all mistaken?Allyn wrote:But what tells us that demons and Satan for that matter are active anywhere close to the activity of the first century? I personally believe Satan as well as all demonic activity has been and is to this day squashed and all done in the first century. I know this will raise objections but I will go as far as to say that not one demon possesses a person today. Sure we see the entertaining pastors of today saying they cast out demons but I think this is contrary to the finished work of Christ.
He will not fail nor be discouraged till He has established justice in the earth. (Isaiah 42:4)
Re: Angels and Demons
Even if the examples of Satanic and demonic activity which I related are all first-century experiences as Allyn affirms, they did occur subsequent to Christ's death for us on the cross. For Allyn seems to think belief in such activity, particularly in our day, including casting out demons today, is contrary to "the finished work of Christ".
Paidion
Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.
Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.
Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.
Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.
Re: Angels and Demons
Sean wrote:What about the reports that come from missionaries where they have cast out demons? Even Steve Gregg has done this. Are they all mistaken?Allyn wrote:But what tells us that demons and Satan for that matter are active anywhere close to the activity of the first century? I personally believe Satan as well as all demonic activity has been and is to this day squashed and all done in the first century. I know this will raise objections but I will go as far as to say that not one demon possesses a person today. Sure we see the entertaining pastors of today saying they cast out demons but I think this is contrary to the finished work of Christ.
Then I must say yes.
Re: Angels and Demons
Hi Paidion,Paidion wrote:Even if the examples of Satanic and demonic activity which I related are all first-century experiences as Allyn affirms, they did occur subsequent to Christ's death for us on the cross. For Allyn seems to think belief in such activity, particularly in our day, including casting out demons today, is contrary to "the finished work of Christ".
If we are going to understand Satan's role in the New Covenant, we must be willing to clear our minds of all the myths and legends that we have heard about Satan and look closely at what the Scriptures teach.
There is a myth that Satan is God's equal opponent- as if God is constantly battling Satan for sovereignty. What does the Bible teach?
It teaches that God is Sovereign.
Romans 16:20 (NKJV) And the God of peace will crush Satan under your feet shortly. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Amen.
Paul tells the Romans that God is about to crush Satan. If we look at the first appearance of Satan in the Bible, we see him coming under God's judgement.
The KJV uses the word "bruise" instead of "crush." The Greek word used here is suntribo, it means: "to crush completely, i.e. to shatter".
When is it that Satan is to be crushed completely? It's at the end of the Old Covenant, when the Lord returned in judgement on Israel. Paul said here to the Roman Christians that it would happen "shortly". The Greek word translated "shortly"' is tachos. According to Arndt and Gingich Lexicon, tachos is used in the LXX and certain non-canonical writings to mean: "speed, quickness, swiftness, haste." Paul uses this same word in:
Philippians 2:19 (NKJV) But I trust in the Lord Jesus to send Timothy to you shortly, that I also may be encouraged when I know your state.
Paul says that he hopes to send Timothy "shortly." How soon is "shortly"? If you look at verse 23 he tells us:
Philippians 2:23 (NKJV) Therefore I hope to send him at once, as soon as I see how it goes with me.
I think that what Paul is saying here is, "As soon as I hear the outcome of my trial, I'm going to send him so you will know what is happening in my life." The Philippians were concerned about Paul, and he wanted to keep them informed. He was going to send Timothy to them just as soon as he knew the results of his trial.
The Bible says that Paul will send Timothy "shortly." Are you excited about Timothy's soon arrival? Why not? I don't know of any Christians that are looking for Timothy to arrive soon. Christians understand that Paul was speaking to the Philippians in the first century when he said this. They don't understand the "shortly" to be to them but to the Philippians of the first century. Why then, when it comes to the crushing of Satan, do they not take "shortly" in its first century context?
Christians expected Timothy to show up in Philippi in the first century, but they don't believe Paul that Satan was "crushed" in the first century. We must work to be more consistent in our hermeneutics.
Remember, audience relevance! Do you think that the believers at Rome could have conceived of 2,000 plus years as shortly? If it was to be some 2,000 plus years, how could he crush him under "their" feet? The people to whom this was written are dust now, they have no feet.
I believe that Satan is a defeated foe. I believe this because I believe in inspiration. Paul told the first century Roman Christians that Satan would soon be crushed completely. If Satan is still around than we have a problem with inspiration which is a huge problem, because if the Bible is not inspired by God, it is of no value to us.
Hebrews 2:14 (NKJV) Inasmuch then as the children have partaken of flesh and blood, He Himself likewise shared in the same, that through death He might destroy him who had the power of death, that is, the devil,
One of the aspects of Christ's earthly mission was to destroy the devil. The Greek word for destroy is katargeo, which means: "to be entirely idle (useless), lit. or fig.:--abolish, cease, destroy, do away, make of no effect, bring to nought". Was Christ a failure in this mission? Most Christians act like he was, they're still all worried about the devil. I think we want him to still be around so we have someone to blame for our sin.
1 John 3:8 (NKJV) He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil.
The Greek word for "destroy" is luo, which means: "to loosen, destroy, dissolve, put off". Christ is said to have destroyed the devil and his works. Do you believe the Bible?
Colossians 2:15 (NKJV) Having disarmed principalities and powers, He made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them in it.
According to my Bible ,Satan is a defeated foe. Jesus Christ has conquered the devil.
The Lord Jesus accomplish what he came to do, and the Book of Revelation is the story of this accomplishment. The Lord's Day is the Day of the Lord's Wrath - not Sunday. It was the day that John the Baptist spoke about:
Luke 3:7 (NKJV) Then he said to the multitudes that came out to be baptized by him, "Brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
Satan is no longer the "god of the age". Jesus now has the keys of death and Hades (Rev 1:18). In Chap 12 the devil stands before the woman to devour her son when he is born, but he is caught up to heaven to the throne of God. There is a war in heaven which Satan loses and he is thrown down to the earth. He knows that his time is short so persecutes the woman and her seed. I believe this chapter sums up the great events of the generation of Jesus and his apostles. We see Satan's judgement in:
Revelation 20:10 (NKJV) The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
What was Christ's purpose in becoming a man to die for our sins? Was it to restore man to the original garden paradise? Was His purpose to restore man in a perfect physical state free from disease and death? No! Christ's mission was a spiritual one that restores man to his relationship with God by making provision for sin and eternal death. So when we read in Rev 21 that the new heaven and new earth have come down and God dwells in the midst of it, we are reading about the completion of Christ's work for us. The real paradise of God has been restored. No sin is there; the blood of Christ covers it. No death is there; all things are made new. Those who are in Christ Jesus today have entered into this new relationship.
People are unable to accept that the Kingdom of God is a present reality. They look at the physical and think that Satan still exists. But in reality, Satan has been crushed. Satan has no power in the New Covenant, he is in the Lake of fire.
Re: Angels and Demons
Demon possession did not exist before Jesus was born (Lk. 11:20b ASV). "And if I by Beelzebub cast out demons, by whom do your sons cast them out? Therefore shall they be your judges. But if I by the finger of God cast out demons, then is the kingdom of God come upon you." Note the reasoning of the Lord. He is saying that they could know "the kingdom of God is come." How could they know? By the fact that demons were being cast out. If demon possession existed before the first century, then this statement is meaningless, or worst, it would mean Jesus was wrong.
The Lord was not wrong. Demon possession and their being cast out was new. The people even said that the power which Jesus manifested was "never so seen in Israel" (Matt. 9:32-33).
Furthermore, demon possession ceased in the first century because miracles have ceased (1 Cor. 13:8ff) (also see the perfect has come - http://www.preteristvoice.org/Fun14.html). Today, godly men are not replacing missing body parts, or walking on water. Neither are they raising the dead, nor casting out demons. This is not because God no longer has the power, but because the power had its place and purpose. When the purpose was fulfilled the miraculous, including casting out demons, ceased.
Should men today expect to see and hear a demon or a demon-possessed man? No. God is no longer creating women from the rib of man. He is no longer creating trees or birds from nothing. Such fabulous manifestations of divine power had their time and place. But not now! If one reasons that demon possession continues, then the one possessed will be possessed his entire life, since it takes a special miraculous gift to cast out a demon and such gifts have ceased to exist. Paul predicted such power would cease, saying, "For we know in part, and we prophesy in part; but when that which is perfect is come, that which is in part shall be done away" (1 Cor. 13:10 ASV). The "perfect" in this text is the opposite of the "in part." What was "in part"? The miraculous gifts which revealed and confirmed the word of God. Now that the word is confirmed, it does not need to be confirmed again and again. Therefore, the "in part" ceased when the not in part - "that which is perfect" - came.
God's prophet, Zechariah, predicted the end of evil spirits (Zech.13:1-3). "In that day there shall be a fountain opened to the house of David and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem for sin and for uncleanness. And it shall come to pass in that day, saith the LORD of hosts, that I will cut off the names of the idols out of the land, and they shall no more be remembered: and also I will cause the prophets and the unclean spirit to pass out of the land. ... it shall come to pass, that when any shall yet prophesy, then his father and his mother that begat him shall say unto him, Thou shalt not live; for thou speakest lies in the name of the LORD..."
Neither the Devil nor his demons can control us (1 Cor. 10:13). All temptations are human, not superhuman.
The Lord was not wrong. Demon possession and their being cast out was new. The people even said that the power which Jesus manifested was "never so seen in Israel" (Matt. 9:32-33).
Furthermore, demon possession ceased in the first century because miracles have ceased (1 Cor. 13:8ff) (also see the perfect has come - http://www.preteristvoice.org/Fun14.html). Today, godly men are not replacing missing body parts, or walking on water. Neither are they raising the dead, nor casting out demons. This is not because God no longer has the power, but because the power had its place and purpose. When the purpose was fulfilled the miraculous, including casting out demons, ceased.
Should men today expect to see and hear a demon or a demon-possessed man? No. God is no longer creating women from the rib of man. He is no longer creating trees or birds from nothing. Such fabulous manifestations of divine power had their time and place. But not now! If one reasons that demon possession continues, then the one possessed will be possessed his entire life, since it takes a special miraculous gift to cast out a demon and such gifts have ceased to exist. Paul predicted such power would cease, saying, "For we know in part, and we prophesy in part; but when that which is perfect is come, that which is in part shall be done away" (1 Cor. 13:10 ASV). The "perfect" in this text is the opposite of the "in part." What was "in part"? The miraculous gifts which revealed and confirmed the word of God. Now that the word is confirmed, it does not need to be confirmed again and again. Therefore, the "in part" ceased when the not in part - "that which is perfect" - came.
God's prophet, Zechariah, predicted the end of evil spirits (Zech.13:1-3). "In that day there shall be a fountain opened to the house of David and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem for sin and for uncleanness. And it shall come to pass in that day, saith the LORD of hosts, that I will cut off the names of the idols out of the land, and they shall no more be remembered: and also I will cause the prophets and the unclean spirit to pass out of the land. ... it shall come to pass, that when any shall yet prophesy, then his father and his mother that begat him shall say unto him, Thou shalt not live; for thou speakest lies in the name of the LORD..."
Neither the Devil nor his demons can control us (1 Cor. 10:13). All temptations are human, not superhuman.