Free Will and Satan's sin

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njd83
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Re: Free Will and Satan's sin

Post by njd83 » Fri Aug 19, 2016 3:32 pm

For me a while back I took a course on eastern orthodox Christianity, but in comparative perspective to catholic and protestant. And later reading more in depth about early church stuff, seeing the difference between the English nasb and literal center column references, and then getting into the Greek and literal renderings.

To me it seems the early church, although it seems many have run with words written by early father's and not understanding them also, the early church believed a doctrine system, that much of the important differences between then and now, are seen to have changed slowly over the years, and coming up with new ideas or refutation, doesn't hold to the original system of ideas. Eschatology, premillenialism is apostolic. See Ireneaus etc. Once saved always saved is not historic faith. See early father's again. Salvation by a faith relationship, in God's grace, doing God's will, becoming like unto the Spirit, is early church belief. It seemed that certain theologians have branched out on their own limb through the past centuries and although trying to make sense of the scriptures, don't do the whole of it justice. To me from my research that's my plausible explanation. Different Christian groups have different reasons to hold to certain different doctrines. But an overview in light of early understanding sheds light on the topic.

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Re: Free Will and Satan's sin

Post by njd83 » Fri Aug 19, 2016 3:46 pm

I mean if this chapter alone by Tertullian is correctly explaining God, once saved always saved and maybe other doctrines would be thrown out easily.
Chapter 23. God's Purposes in Election and Rejection of the Same Men, Such as King Saul, Explained, in Answer to the Marcionite Cavil.

Now, although you will have it that He is inconstant in respect of persons, sometimes disapproving where approbation is deserved; or else wanting in foresight, bestowing approbation on men who ought rather to be reprobated, as if He either censured His own past judgments, or could not forecast His future ones; yet nothing is so consistent for even a good judge as both to reject and to choose on the merits of the present moment. Saul is chosen, 1 Samuel 9 but he is not yet the despiser of the prophet Samuel. 1 Samuel 13 Solomon is rejected; but he is now become a prey to foreign women, and a slave to the idols of Moab and Sidon. What must the Creator do, in order to escape the censure of the Marcionites? Must He prematurely condemn men, who are thus far correct in their conduct, because of future delinquencies? But it is not the mark of a good God to condemn beforehand persons who have not yet deserved condemnation. Must He then refuse to eject sinners, on account of their previous good deeds? But it is not the characteristic of a just judge to forgive sins in consideration of former virtues which are no longer practised. Now, who is so faultless among men, that God could always have him in His choice, and never be able to reject him? Or who, on the other hand, is so void of any good work, that God could reject him for ever, and never be able to choose him? Show me, then, the man who is always good, and he will not be rejected; show me, too, him who is always evil, and he will never be chosen. Should, however, the same man, being found on different occasions in the pursuit of both (good and evil) be recompensed in both directions by God, who is both a good and judicial Being, He does not change His judgments through inconstancy or want of foresight, but dispenses reward according to the deserts of each case with a most unwavering and provident decision

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Re: Free Will and Satan's sin

Post by njd83 » Sat Aug 20, 2016 1:17 pm

Here is a relevant chapter about early church father Irenaeus' (~180AD) understanding of the first resurrection, Jesus coming and destroying the antichrist and nations under his rule and establishing the kingdom with the saints. Also Didache quote below (an earlier document than Irenaeus) for interested persons. also another quote from apocalypse of peter.
Against Heresies (Book V, Chapter 35)

He contends that these testimonies already alleged cannot be understood allegorically of celestial blessings, but that they shall have their fulfilment after the coming of Antichrist, and the resurrection, in the terrestrial Jerusalem. To the former prophecies he subjoins others drawn from Isaiah, Jeremiah, and the Apocalypse of John.


1. If, however, any shall endeavour to allegorize [prophecies] of this kind, they shall not be found consistent with themselves in all points, and shall be confuted by the teaching of the very expressions [in question]. For example: When the cities of the Gentiles shall be desolate, so that they be not inhabited, and the houses so that there shall be no men in them and the land shall be left desolate. Isaiah 6:11 For, behold, says Isaiah, the day of the Lord comes past remedy, full of fury and wrath, to lay waste the city of the earth, and to root sinners out of it. Isaiah 13:9 And again he says, Let him be taken away, that he behold not the glory of God. Isaiah 26:10 And when these things are done, he says, God will remove men far away, and those that are left shall multiply in the earth. Isaiah 6:12 And they shall build houses, and shall inhabit them themselves: and plant vineyards, and eat of them themselves. Isaiah 65:21 For all these and other words were unquestionably spoken in reference to the resurrection of the just, which takes place after the coming of Antichrist, and the destruction of all nations under his rule; in [the times of] which [resurrection] the righteous shall reign in the earth, waxing stronger by the sight of the Lord: and through Him they shall become accustomed to partake in the glory of God the Father, and shall enjoy in the kingdom intercourse and communion with the holy angels, and union with spiritual beings; and [with respect to] those whom the Lord shall find in the flesh, awaiting Him from heaven, and who have suffered tribulation, as well as escaped the hands of the Wicked one. For it is in reference to them that the prophet says: And those that are left shall multiply upon the earth, And Jeremiah the prophet has pointed out, that as many believers as God has prepared for this purpose, to multiply those left upon earth, should both be under the rule of the saints to minister to this Jerusalem, and that [His] kingdom shall be in it, saying, Look around Jerusalem towards the east, and behold the joy which comes to you from God Himself. Behold, your sons shall come whom you have sent forth: they shall come in a band from the east even unto the west, by the word of that Holy One, rejoicing in that splendour which is from your God. O Jerusalem, put off your robe of mourning and of affliction, and put on that beauty of eternal splendour from your God. Gird yourself with the double garment of that righteousness proceeding from your God; place the mitre of eternal glory upon your head. For God will show your glory to the whole earth under heaven. For your name shall for ever be called by God Himself, the peace of righteousness and glory to him that worships God. Arise, Jerusalem, stand on high, and look towards the east, and behold your sons from the rising of the sun, even to the west, by the Word of that Holy One, rejoicing in the very remembrance of God. For the footmen have gone forth from you, while they were drawn away by the enemy. God shall bring them in to you, being borne with glory as the throne of a kingdom. For God has decreed that every high mountain shall be brought low, and the eternal hills, and that the valleys be filled, so that the surface of the earth be rendered smooth, that Israel, the glory of God, may walk in safety. The woods, too, shall make shady places, and every sweet-smelling tree shall be for Israel itself by the command of God. For God shall go before with joy in the light of His splendour, with the pity and righteousness which proceeds from Him.

2. Now all these things being such as they are, cannot be understood in reference to super-celestial matters; for God, it is said, will show to the whole earth that is under heaven your glory. But in the times of the kingdom, the earth has been called again by Christ [to its pristine condition], and Jerusalem rebuilt after the pattern of the Jerusalem above, of which the prophet Isaiah says, Behold, I have depicted your walls upon my hands, and you are always in my sight. Isaiah 49:16 And the apostle, too, writing to the Galatians, says in like manner, But the Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all. Galatians 4:26 He does not say this with any thought of an erratic Æon, or of any other power which departed from the Pleroma, or of Prunicus, but of the Jerusalem which has been delineated on [God's] hands. And in the Apocalypse John saw this new [Jerusalem] descending upon the new earth. Revelation 21:2 For after the times of the kingdom, he says, I saw a great white throne, and Him who sat upon it, from whose face the earth fled away, and the heavens; and there was no more place for them. Revelation 20:11 And he sets forth, too, the things connected with the general resurrection and the judgment, mentioning the dead, great and small. The sea, he says, gave up the dead which it had in it, and death and hell delivered up the dead that they contained; and the books were opened. Moreover, he says, the book of life was opened, and the dead were judged out of those things that were written in the books, according to their works; and death and hell were sent into the lake of fire, the second death. Revelation 20:12-14 Now this is what is called Gehenna, which the Lord styled eternal fire. Matthew 25:41 And if any one, it is said, was not found written in the book of life, he was sent into the lake of fire. Revelation 20:15 And after this, he says, I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and earth have passed away; also there was no more sea. And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from heaven, as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard, it is said, a great voice from the throne, saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them; and they shall be His people, and God Himself shall be with them as their God. And He will wipe away every tear from their eyes; and death shall be no more, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain, because the former things have passed away. Revelation 21:1-4 Isaiah also declares the very same: For there shall be a new heaven and a new earth; and there shall be no remembrance of the former, neither shall the heart think about them, but they shall find in it joy and exultation. Isaiah 65:17-18 Now this is what has been said by the apostle: For the fashion of this world passes away. 1 Corinthians 7:31 To the same purpose did the Lord also declare, Heaven and earth shall pass away. Matthew 26:35 When these things, therefore, pass away above the earth, John, the Lord's disciple, says that the new Jerusalem above shall [then] descend, as a bride adorned for her husband; and that this is the tabernacle of God, in which God will dwell with men. Of this Jerusalem the former one is an image— that Jerusalem of the former earth in which the righteous are disciplined beforehand for incorruption and prepared for salvation. And of this tabernacle Moses received the pattern in the mount; Exodus 25:40 and nothing is capable of being allegorized, but all things are steadfast, and true, and substantial, having been made by God for righteous men's enjoyment. For as it is God truly who raises up man, so also does man truly rise from the dead, and not allegorically, as I have shown repeatedly. And as he rises actually, so also shall he be actually disciplined beforehand for incorruption, and shall go forwards and flourish in the times of the kingdom, in order that he may be capable of receiving the glory of the Father. Then, when all things are made new, he shall truly dwell in the city of God. For it is said, He that sits on the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And the Lord says, Write all this; for these words are faithful and true. And He said to me, They are done. Revelation 21:5-6 And this is the truth of the matter.
Didache
CHAPTER 16
16:1 Watch concerning your life; let not your lamps be quenched or your loins be loosed, but be ye ready, for ye know not the hour at which our Lord cometh.

16:2 But be ye gathered together frequently, seeking what is suitable for your souls; for the whole time of your faith shall profit you not, unless ye be found perfect in the last time.

16:3 For in the last days false prophets and seducers shall be multiplied, and the sheep shall be turned into wolves, and love shall be turned into hate;

16:4 and because iniquity abounds they shall hate each other, and persecute each other, and deliver each other up; and then shall the Deceiver of the world appear as the Son of God, and shall do signs and wonders, and the earth shall be delivered into his hands; and he shall do unlawful things, such as have never happened since the beginning of the world.

16:5 Then shall the creation of man come to the fiery trial of proof, and many shall be offended and shall perish; but they who remain in their faith shall be saved by the rock of offence itself.

16:6 And then shall appear the signs of the truth; first the sign of the appearance in heaven, then the sign of the sound of the trumpet, and thirdly the resurrection of the dead

16:7 -- not of all, but as it has been said, The Lord shall come and all his saints with him;

16:8 then shall the world behold the Lord coming on the clouds of heaven.
Apocalypse of Peter
(Ethiopic manuscript, quoted by many church fathers and accepted as scripture in the Muratorian Cannon fragment, although not wanted to be read in the church possibly due to its content about punishment, or something else regarding possible salvation of sinners from Hades, eventually at some point, after punishments, before final resurrection, great white throne judgment)

"...Declare unto us what are the signs of thy coming and of the end of the world, that we may perceive and mark the time of thy coming and instruct them that come after us, unto whom we preach the word of thy gospel, and whom we set over (in) thy church, that they when they hear it may take heed to themselves and mark the time of thy coming.

And our Lord answered us, saying: Take heed that no man deceive you, and that ye be not doubters and serve other gods. Many shall come in my name, saying: I am the Christ. Believe them not, neither draw near unto them. For the coming of the Son of God shall not be plain (i.e. foreseen); but as the lightning that shineth from the east unto the west, so will I come upon the clouds of heaven with a great host in my majesty; with my cross going before my face will I come in my majesty, shining sevenfold more than the sun will I come in my majesty with all my saints, mine angels (mine holy angels). And my Father shall set a crown upon mine head, that I may judge the quick and the dead and recompense every man according to his works.

And ye, take ye the likeness thereof (learn a parable) from the fig-tree: so soon as the shoot thereof is come forth and the twigs grown, the end of the world shall come.

And I, Peter, answered and said unto him: Interpret unto me concerning the fig-tree, whereby we shall perceive it; for throughout all its days doth the fig-tree send forth shoots, and every year it bringeth forth its fruit for its master. What then meaneth the parable of the fig-tree? We know it not.

And the Master (Lord) answered and said unto me: Understandest thou not that the fig-tree is the house of Israel?...

[later on]...Enoch and Elias shall be sent to teach them [Israel] that this is the deceiver...[about the antichrist]..."
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Re: Free Will and Satan's sin

Post by njd83 » Sat Aug 20, 2016 1:36 pm

one more quote for those interested, Origen:

Against Celsus Book 6 Chapters part 25 part 26

chapter 25

....Moreover, Celsus says that the diagram was divided by a thick black line, and this line he asserted was called Gehenna, which is Tartarus. Now as we found that Gehenna was mentioned in the Gospel as a place of punishment, we searched to see whether it is mentioned anywhere in the ancient Scriptures, and especially because the Jews too use the word. And we ascertained that where the valley of the son of Ennom was named in Scripture in the Hebrew, instead of valley, with fundamentally the same meaning, it was termed both the valley of Ennom and also Geenna. And continuing our researches, we find that what was termed Geenna, or the valley of Ennom, was included in the lot of the tribe of Benjamin, in which Jerusalem also was situated. And seeking to ascertain what might be the inference from the heavenly Jerusalem belonging to the lot of Benjamin and the valley of Ennom, we find a certain confirmation of what is said regarding the place of punishment, intended for the purification of such souls as are to be purified by torments, agreeably to the saying: The Lord comes like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap: and He shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver and of gold. [Malachi 3:3]

Chapter 26

It is in the precincts of Jerusalem, then, that punishments will be inflicted upon those who undergo the process of purification, who have received into the substance of their soul the elements of wickedness, which in a certain place is figuratively termed lead [Zechariah 5:8], and on that account iniquity is represented in Zechariah as sitting upon a talent of lead. But the remarks which might be made on this topic are neither to be made to all, nor to be uttered on the present occasion; for it is not unattended with danger to commit to writing the explanation of such subjects, seeing the multitude need no further instruction than that which relates to the punishment of sinners; while to ascend beyond this is not expedient, for the sake of those who are with difficulty restrained, even by fear of eternal punishment, from plunging into any degree of wickedness, and into the flood of evils which result from sin. The doctrine of Geenna, then, is unknown both to the diagram and to Celsus:..."

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Re: Free Will and Satan's sin

Post by Paidion » Sat Aug 20, 2016 4:56 pm

Hi njd. The Irenæus quote sounds a lot like classical teaching of historic premillenialism (to which I subscribe).

I have often wondered about the destruction of the heavens and earth as described by the writer of 2 Peter.

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up.

This doesn't seem consistent with Isaiah's description of a restored earth in the last day (which the second-century Christian writers also seem to have taught).
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Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

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Re: Free Will and Satan's sin

Post by njd83 » Sat Aug 20, 2016 11:46 pm

I know what you mean. I struggle to put that together too

It seems they are talking about two different events. One before and one after the 1000 year reign of Christ. Apocalypse of John gives reliable details as to the events but elsewhere it's hard to tell which event the text is referring to, before or after. In a sense: Jesus judgment seat as king for 1000 year reign, versus White Throne final judgment and lake of fire. Jesus reigns as intermediary while people still have hope to choose God. Refiners fire. Once all is submitted, every knee will bow, to God through Jesus 1000 year reign: the second general resurrection, the book of life, books are opened, judgment, second death, and then the new heavens and earth.

So for me it's trying to figure out which verses are referring to the before or after ( or during) 1000 year reign. Both in the Bible and elsewhere. :)
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Re: Free Will and Satan's sin

Post by njd83 » Tue Aug 23, 2016 8:23 am

I wanted to add, and many of you know this, two parallel verses about ultimate annihilation of the soul in gehenna.
‘And be not afraid of those killing the body, and are not able to kill the soul, but fear rather Him who is able both soul and body to destroy in gehenna.
Matthew 10:28
‘And I say to you, my friends, be not afraid of those killing the body, and after these things are not having anything over to do; but I will show to you, whom you may fear; Fear him who, after the killing, is having authority to cast to the gehenna; yes, I say to you, Fear you Him.
Luke 12:4

So it's basically saying the authority is there to destroy a "psuche" or soul in gehenna, which is the actual person inside the body

But like Origin said quoting Malachi 3:3...
And who is bearing the day of his coming? And who is standing in his appearing? For he is as fire of a refiner, And as soap of a fuller. And he has sat, a refiner and purifier of silver, And he has purified the sons of Levi, And has refined them as gold and as silver, And they have been to Jehovah [as] bringing near an [offering] in righteousness
...Some are to be purified by fire as well. I guess the only logical conclusion is to believe the gospel and start seeking the Lord now until there is no blame left in oneself for the fire to burn

edit: I wanted to add another quote pertaining to Levi, for any who come along and read this:
“My covenant has been with him[Levi] of life and of peace, And I make them to him a fear, and he does fear Me, And because of My name he has stood in awe. The law of truth has been in his mouth, And perverseness has not been found in his lips, In peace and in uprightness he walked with Me, And many he brought back from iniquity. For the lips of a priest preserve knowledge, And law they do seek from his mouth, For a messenger of Jehovah of Hosts he is. And you, you have turned from the way, you have caused many to stumble in the law, you have corrupted the covenant of Levi, Said Jehovah of Hosts. And I also, I have made you despised and low before all the people, Because you are not keeping My ways, And are accepting persons[partiality] in the law.” (Malachi 2:5–9, YLT edited)
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Re: Free Will and Satan's sin

Post by njd83 » Tue Aug 23, 2016 9:54 am

I wanted to add the definition of the soul as a spiritual element (as well as/similar to the "spirit of man") by Irenaeus, since its not explicitly defined in the bible, and the OT corresponding words are [a little] different also.
....They do not take this fact into consideration, that there are three things out of which, as I have shown, the complete man is composed—flesh, soul, and spirit. One of these does indeed preserve and fashion [the man]—this is the spirit; while as to another it is united and formed—that is the flesh; then [comes] that which is between these two—that is the soul, which sometimes indeed, when it follows the spirit, is raised up by it, but sometimes it sympathizes with the flesh, and falls into carnal lusts....
-Irenaeus - Against Heresies - book 5 chapter 9

edit: its not in Irenaeus, but in Tatian
We recognise two varieties of spirit, one of which is called the soul (ψυχή), but the other is greater than the soul, an image and likeness of God:
Tatian - Address to the Greeks, chapter 7

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