This evening, we watched a DVD by a minstry which teaches that Hip Hop culture is demonic by nature. The speaker spins an amazing tale that the devil was originally a beautiful worship-leader/cherub called Lucifer who had musical instruments in his body (!). Lucifer saw the power which music had on the other angels and then tried to lead them in a rebellion agaist God. After his fall, he lost the name Lucifer because he no longer had access to heaven and became known as satan. Now, he has unleashed his greatest weaponever to hypnotise the minds of the church youth... Hip Hop!! He seriously taught this stuff. Sadly, people will be sucked in by this nonsense because he said alot of "God told me."
As a result of this, I've had to go public with the "satan isn't lucifer" idea. I'm now doing some researcht to present to the folks. In the porcess, I've run across these interesting articles concerning the subject.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helel
(Be forewarned, it contains some stuff about satanists at the bottom)
http://www.tegart.com/brian/bible/kjvonly/helel.html
Does anyone know of any other good online resources on the issue?
Ely
Origin of Satan
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
"Looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Saviour, Christ Jesus" Titus 2:13
www.lasttrumpet.com
www.pfrs.org
www.lasttrumpet.com
www.pfrs.org
This evening, we watched a DVD by a minstry which teaches that Hip Hop culture is demonic by nature. The speaker spins an amazing tale that the devil was originally a beautiful worship-leader/cherub called Lucifer who had musical instruments in his body (!). Lucifer saw the power which music had on the other angels and then tried to lead them in a rebellion agaist God. After his fall, he lost the name Lucifer because he no longer had access to heaven and became known as satan. Now, he has unleashed his greatest weaponever to hypnotise the minds of the church youth... Hip Hop!! He seriously taught this stuff. Sadly, people will be sucked in by this nonsense because he said alot of "God told me."
As a result of this, I've had to go public with the "satan isn't lucifer" idea. I'm now doing some researcht to present to the folks. In the porcess, I've run across these interesting articles concerning the subject.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helel
(Be forewarned, it contains some stuff about satanists at the bottom)
http://www.tegart.com/brian/bible/kjvonly/helel.html
Does anyone know of any other good online resources on the issue?
Ely
As a result of this, I've had to go public with the "satan isn't lucifer" idea. I'm now doing some researcht to present to the folks. In the porcess, I've run across these interesting articles concerning the subject.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helel
(Be forewarned, it contains some stuff about satanists at the bottom)
http://www.tegart.com/brian/bible/kjvonly/helel.html
Does anyone know of any other good online resources on the issue?
Ely
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
"Looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Saviour, Christ Jesus" Titus 2:13
www.lasttrumpet.com
www.pfrs.org
www.lasttrumpet.com
www.pfrs.org
Re: Origin of Satan
Greetings,
As Steve says, Scripture has a cultural, historical and cosmological context (i.e. world view) in which it was written in and about. I am an Orthodox Christian and Cleric.....so my understanding is not just based upon the Hebrew Text and Canon of the Tanakh, but the Greek Text and Canon; as well as hebraic sources which predate or are within the JudeoChristian era in which our Faith took root.
Biblically it is certain that the Adversary (ha'Satan) who is known as that Ancient Serpent the Devil, existed already in the Paradise of Eden. He was among those angelics designated the Sons of God (i.e. Benai ha'Elohim) who patrol the universe and report directly to God as to their observations (i.e. The Eyes of God).
In Hebrew Second Temple Judaism (and in mordern Judaism) there are Ten Ranks of Angelics, and the Sons of God are the 9th Rank. In Classic Judeo-Christian Orthodoxy and most traditional protestant groups these Ranks are known in Pauline terms as the Choirs of Angelics: 6 winged Serafim), 4 winged Kerubim), Spinning Thrones (i.e. Ofanim), Dominions (i.e. 24 Elders), Principalities (7 Spirits/Angels who serve before God), Armies (i.e. Powers), Magistrates (i.e. Rulers), Chief Angels, Ministering Angels and the Elementals. Now these are the heavenly hosts......the beings who members of Jehovah's Celestial Royal Court as spoken of in the Psalms and jewish lturature of Pre Christian times.
Satan seems to have been among those ranked as a Princes (Principalities) of which Hebrew Cosmology holds that there are 70. 7 Princes stand before God daily (Mika'el, Gavri'el, Rafi'el, Fanu'el, Uri'el and two others) and are spoken of in Revelations as the 7 spirits who are before the Throne, who as angels break the 7 seals, pour out the 7 cencers and blow the 7 shofars.
There were 70 Princes total, and to each was given a Nation of Humanity to oversee. Mika'el was given the Hebrew Nation (and all who call upon Jehovah's Name). Daniel speaks of the battles of Mikael and other princes. In Orthodoxy Mikael is the Prince of the General Assembly of the Church of the Firstborn, the Israel of God.
Satan was a Prince who fell, according to Scripture and Hebrew Cosmology, at the moment he became jealous of Adam and Eve who were made in God's image and likeness, and who were given earth and all in it as their Principality. All of the Stars (Hosts of Heaven i.e Choirs of Angels) rejoiced at earh and mankind's birth. Satan alone did not. He lied to Eve and Adam to spiritually murder them and avenge his wounded ego and make himself the Prince over this world and all in it. Thus He is the Father of lies and a murderer from the Beginning in Eden. Satan fell in Eden and so did Mankind.
So God punished all three parties involved in the disobedience against God's Will and Design. Satan had to slither about in discrace until he was to be sentenced to Gehinnom's lake, Adam would have to work until his death to scratch by to provide food, clothes and shelter, and eve would give birth in greater pain and though she loved Adam he would rebuff her and put her under his thumb. And from then on Satan would seek to destroy humanity and a Man (Christ) would eventually destroy Satan even though it would kill him in the process.
So Satan, Adam and Eve fell short from the glory of God and were separated from the life giving Grace of God the moment they all sinned. Adam and Eve then were excommunicated from God's presence in the Paradise of Eden, but satan is not mentioned any further until Job. Satan is then seen among the Sons of God and is revealed as still being our Adversary, accusing God's Elect of being no more than mercenary at heart. God refutes Satan by allowing him to be the tester of His elect....but life and death remain in God's hands. satan is seen in this light in the Prophet Zechariah's writing. In the Gospels, Epistles and Revelations Satan is revealed to still be our Adversary, Accuser, Deceiver and Tester. But His destruction is always foreseen and hailed.
Satan was a divinely created being who fell into sin through pride, jealousy and covetousness. Adam and Eve were his forbidden fruit, and he chose to involve himself in our affairs and was punished for it. Some of the sons of God would do likewise in Genesis 6 1 - 5, and even go further, begetting giants with human women and again later after the flood before the Hebrews entered the chosen land. Satan is said to have tempted many of the Sons of God "who did not keep their positions of authority but abanded their proper bodies" and sinned with foriegn flesh and beget Giants. God sent His angels to arrest them and "these He has incarcerated in darkness of Tartarus, chained up in perpetuity until they are condemned on the Great Day.
The spirits of the dead Giants are said to be demons (shedi'im), who seek to posess humans in vengence for their deaths and the imprisonment of their fathers in tartarus. These demons wander the earth seeking to inhabit humans and destroy them. And they await their condemnation on the Great Day of Judgment when the Son of Man shall appear to condemn them to Gehinnom. this is why they recognized Christ when He came and begged him not to condemn them before the Great Day. Unclean spirits are said to be lost souls of the unrighteous.
So Satan, demons and unclean spirits all work together as the Kingdom of darkness against God and His Elect. Satan was not a king of Tyre, Ninevah or Babylon. He was never called Lucifer or Halel. Saint Lucifer would be shocked by this late tradition. Satan was not created as the Prosecuting Attorney of Heaven, nor does God create an Evil Adversary and Kingdom to battle with.....this is Persian dualism. When Satan and his minions fell Gehinnom's lake was created.....and all who fall short of thge glory of god and fall into unrepentant sin are doomed by their own will and actions to enter this final condemnation.
Rev. Ken Huffman
As Steve says, Scripture has a cultural, historical and cosmological context (i.e. world view) in which it was written in and about. I am an Orthodox Christian and Cleric.....so my understanding is not just based upon the Hebrew Text and Canon of the Tanakh, but the Greek Text and Canon; as well as hebraic sources which predate or are within the JudeoChristian era in which our Faith took root.
Biblically it is certain that the Adversary (ha'Satan) who is known as that Ancient Serpent the Devil, existed already in the Paradise of Eden. He was among those angelics designated the Sons of God (i.e. Benai ha'Elohim) who patrol the universe and report directly to God as to their observations (i.e. The Eyes of God).
In Hebrew Second Temple Judaism (and in mordern Judaism) there are Ten Ranks of Angelics, and the Sons of God are the 9th Rank. In Classic Judeo-Christian Orthodoxy and most traditional protestant groups these Ranks are known in Pauline terms as the Choirs of Angelics: 6 winged Serafim), 4 winged Kerubim), Spinning Thrones (i.e. Ofanim), Dominions (i.e. 24 Elders), Principalities (7 Spirits/Angels who serve before God), Armies (i.e. Powers), Magistrates (i.e. Rulers), Chief Angels, Ministering Angels and the Elementals. Now these are the heavenly hosts......the beings who members of Jehovah's Celestial Royal Court as spoken of in the Psalms and jewish lturature of Pre Christian times.
Satan seems to have been among those ranked as a Princes (Principalities) of which Hebrew Cosmology holds that there are 70. 7 Princes stand before God daily (Mika'el, Gavri'el, Rafi'el, Fanu'el, Uri'el and two others) and are spoken of in Revelations as the 7 spirits who are before the Throne, who as angels break the 7 seals, pour out the 7 cencers and blow the 7 shofars.
There were 70 Princes total, and to each was given a Nation of Humanity to oversee. Mika'el was given the Hebrew Nation (and all who call upon Jehovah's Name). Daniel speaks of the battles of Mikael and other princes. In Orthodoxy Mikael is the Prince of the General Assembly of the Church of the Firstborn, the Israel of God.
Satan was a Prince who fell, according to Scripture and Hebrew Cosmology, at the moment he became jealous of Adam and Eve who were made in God's image and likeness, and who were given earth and all in it as their Principality. All of the Stars (Hosts of Heaven i.e Choirs of Angels) rejoiced at earh and mankind's birth. Satan alone did not. He lied to Eve and Adam to spiritually murder them and avenge his wounded ego and make himself the Prince over this world and all in it. Thus He is the Father of lies and a murderer from the Beginning in Eden. Satan fell in Eden and so did Mankind.
So God punished all three parties involved in the disobedience against God's Will and Design. Satan had to slither about in discrace until he was to be sentenced to Gehinnom's lake, Adam would have to work until his death to scratch by to provide food, clothes and shelter, and eve would give birth in greater pain and though she loved Adam he would rebuff her and put her under his thumb. And from then on Satan would seek to destroy humanity and a Man (Christ) would eventually destroy Satan even though it would kill him in the process.
So Satan, Adam and Eve fell short from the glory of God and were separated from the life giving Grace of God the moment they all sinned. Adam and Eve then were excommunicated from God's presence in the Paradise of Eden, but satan is not mentioned any further until Job. Satan is then seen among the Sons of God and is revealed as still being our Adversary, accusing God's Elect of being no more than mercenary at heart. God refutes Satan by allowing him to be the tester of His elect....but life and death remain in God's hands. satan is seen in this light in the Prophet Zechariah's writing. In the Gospels, Epistles and Revelations Satan is revealed to still be our Adversary, Accuser, Deceiver and Tester. But His destruction is always foreseen and hailed.
Satan was a divinely created being who fell into sin through pride, jealousy and covetousness. Adam and Eve were his forbidden fruit, and he chose to involve himself in our affairs and was punished for it. Some of the sons of God would do likewise in Genesis 6 1 - 5, and even go further, begetting giants with human women and again later after the flood before the Hebrews entered the chosen land. Satan is said to have tempted many of the Sons of God "who did not keep their positions of authority but abanded their proper bodies" and sinned with foriegn flesh and beget Giants. God sent His angels to arrest them and "these He has incarcerated in darkness of Tartarus, chained up in perpetuity until they are condemned on the Great Day.
The spirits of the dead Giants are said to be demons (shedi'im), who seek to posess humans in vengence for their deaths and the imprisonment of their fathers in tartarus. These demons wander the earth seeking to inhabit humans and destroy them. And they await their condemnation on the Great Day of Judgment when the Son of Man shall appear to condemn them to Gehinnom. this is why they recognized Christ when He came and begged him not to condemn them before the Great Day. Unclean spirits are said to be lost souls of the unrighteous.
So Satan, demons and unclean spirits all work together as the Kingdom of darkness against God and His Elect. Satan was not a king of Tyre, Ninevah or Babylon. He was never called Lucifer or Halel. Saint Lucifer would be shocked by this late tradition. Satan was not created as the Prosecuting Attorney of Heaven, nor does God create an Evil Adversary and Kingdom to battle with.....this is Persian dualism. When Satan and his minions fell Gehinnom's lake was created.....and all who fall short of thge glory of god and fall into unrepentant sin are doomed by their own will and actions to enter this final condemnation.
Rev. Ken Huffman
Re: Origin of Satan
Hi Ken,
What sources did you use to help you understand the origin of satan? I see that you have alluded to several bible passages, but the majority of your theory seems to have come from other sources.
Thanks in advance.
What sources did you use to help you understand the origin of satan? I see that you have alluded to several bible passages, but the majority of your theory seems to have come from other sources.
Thanks in advance.
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karenstricycle
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darinhouston
- Posts: 3114
- Joined: Tue Aug 26, 2008 7:45 am
Re: Origin of Satan
How would you describe the "Intelligences?" That is a concept unknown to most Christians, I think.karenstricycle wrote:In my "book club" the norm is that God had organized all the intelligences, that he did not necessarily create them. This may also correspond in the afterlife that "in my Fathers house are many mansions. Lucifers kingdom is not in the spirit/physical kingdoms.
Re: Origin of Satan
I've been following this thread some.
Several things Rev Ken posted...are how I see things too.
I won't post on what...it would take a while.
Maybe later.
Actually, my views might be somewhat similar to Mormons' too. Namely, on the devil being a "son of God" {he being a fallen angel}. Just the devil being that, is all. After this, my similarities with Mormon thought probably stops, but I'm not sure....
Several things Rev Ken posted...are how I see things too.
I won't post on what...it would take a while.
Maybe later.
Actually, my views might be somewhat similar to Mormons' too. Namely, on the devil being a "son of God" {he being a fallen angel}. Just the devil being that, is all. After this, my similarities with Mormon thought probably stops, but I'm not sure....
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karenstricycle
- Posts: 56
- Joined: Mon Sep 08, 2008 7:53 pm
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darinhouston
- Posts: 3114
- Joined: Tue Aug 26, 2008 7:45 am
Re: Origin of Satan
I'm afraid I didn't understand that. I have heard it said that LDS believes that "Intelligences" are the spiritual essence of all in heaven that were or were later to be "born" into human bodies, and that these "spirit" entities called Intelligences were co-eternal with the Father. Do you believe this?karenstricycle wrote:(The LDS doesn't just sit around "getting taught and preached" to. There is no debate. There may be a current theme, but pretty much, your good to go... So, as an (lds), what "I" might think? I hope other (lds) or whatever, feel free to join in with their own ideas and thoughts also. This would be new. This has a high risk to it, but has been so clearifying. So informative.)
"Intelligences" would be BEFORE THOUGHT or LANGUAGE. Organized Thought and Language. Lucifer has Knowedge. I think Satan just harrasses the hell out of us all day and all night. Our chemistry affects our thoughts also. So does the power of guilt (God. I am stupid.) Paranoia, or feeling hated and under some kind of dreadfull condemnation. The opposite? Happy, joyous, and free of coarse!!! By who? by what? Not by drugs.I'll put it that way. Drugs affect chemistry. Money is fun, but when it's gone? Oh my. Envy, Jealousy, rage, drivenness, etc... I think these are more provoked by the luciferian kingdoms. Almost voo-doo. That old man lucifer, even the devil". Physical? no. Horrific? YES!. Muddling? YES! Since God "spoke" the creation into being, I think that the intelligences HE may have organized was before HIS organization of partical.