A question for Steve about Satan and Calvinism

[Paidion]

I think Homer's point may be the answer. When we look at the preceding context, we see that Pharoah seemed to give in because of the hail that Yahweh [the LORD) had sent:

23 Then Moses stretched out his staff toward heaven, and the LORD sent thunder and hail, and fire ran down to the earth. And the LORD rained hail upon the land of Egypt.
24 There was hail and fire flashing continually in the midst of the hail, very heavy hail, such as had never been in all the land of Egypt since it became a nation.
25 The hail struck down everything that was in the field in all the land of Egypt, both man and beast. And the hail struck down every plant of the field and broke every tree of the field.
26 Only in the land of Goshen, where the people of Israel were, was there no hail.
27 Then Pharaoh sent and called Moses and Aaron and said to them, “This time I have sinned; the LORD is in the right, and I and my people are in the wrong.
28 Plead with the LORD, for there has been enough of God’s thunder and hail. I will let you go, and you shall stay no longer.”

So Moses took him at his word, and said that he would ask Yahweh to stop the hail.

29 Moses said to him, “As soon as I have gone out of the city, I will stretch out my hands to the LORD. The thunder will cease, and there will be no more hail, so that you may know that the earth is the LORD’s.
30 But as for you and your servants, I know that you do not yet fear the LORD God.”
31 (The flax and the barley were struck down, for the barley was in the ear and the flax was in bud.
32 But the wheat and the emmer were not struck down, for they are late in coming up.)
33 So Moses went out of the city from Pharaoh and stretched out his hands to the LORD, and the thunder and the hail ceased, and the rain no longer poured upon the earth.

Pharaoh's response to this was to harden his heart [Yahweh didn't harden it at this point].

34 But when Pharaoh saw that the rain and the hail and the thunder had ceased, he sinned yet again and hardened his heart, he and his servants.
35 So the heart of Pharaoh was hardened, and he did not let the people of Israel go, just as the LORD had spoken through Moses.

Then Yahweh stated that He had hardened Pharaoh's heart. How did He harden it? Could He have done it in an indirect way, by sending the hail and then removing it?

1 ¶ Then the LORD said to Moses, “Go in to Pharaoh, for I have hardened his heart and the heart of his servants ...

Finally, Yahweh gives the reason for hardening Pharaoh's heart, perhaps in this indirect way.

...that I may show these signs of mine among them,
2 and that you may tell in the hearing of your son and of your grandson how I have dealt harshly with the Egyptians and what signs I have done among them, that you may know that I am the LORD.”

[brody196]

How does God harden the heart? Directly or indirectly? The Gospel message can certainly harden the heart of one who is opposed to it and does not want to hear of it. I have seen it happen.

You got me on that one Homer! I have no clue...

[Perry]

Hi Brody,

I'm not sure why you have a problem with this,

I don't have a particular "problem" with it per se. It's just that, in my opinion, the Pharaoh example is hauled up way too quickly and way too often as a proof text for something that it may not be proving. In my view, very little consideration given to alternative explanations for what's actually being said (and not said) in those verses.

... if it brings about God's purposes to harden an evil earthly ruler, then who are we to judge? Do you believe that it would somehow be disingenuous for God to actively harden Pharaohs heart?

Well, I'm certainly no one to judge God. God's well within his rights, whatever he chooses.

I wouldn't call it disingenuous. I'd be more inclined to describe it as a bit out of character.

I'm curious to know how you would address the point I made regarding Ex 9:34.

[Perry]

The Gospel message can certainly harden the heart of one who is opposed to it and does not want to hear of it. I have seen it happen.

That's a great example of exactly my point.

How does God harden the heart? Directly or indirectly?

Which do you consider the example you just gave to be, direct or indirect. I would call it indirect. As I said in my initial response, I don't think it is as though God sort of reaches in and wraps His fist around their hearts and hardens them, but rather, the hardening of their heart is a choice that they make in how to respond to what God is doing.

[Homer]

Perry and Brody,

That's a great example of exactly my point.

Homer wrote:
How does God harden the heart? Directly or indirectly?

Which do you consider the example you just gave to be, direct or indirect. I would call it indirect. As I said in my initial response, I don't think it is as though God sort of reaches in and wraps His fist around their hearts and hardens them, but rather, the hardening of their heart is a choice that they make in how to respond to what God is doing

That is my point. But I also have believed for years that in some cases (rare) a person becomes so hopeless that God gives up any further attempt to reach them - He knows they will never change.