Where did demons come from?

Angels & Demons
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_Derek
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Post by _Derek » Wed May 24, 2006 10:11 pm

2 Corinthians 11: 13-15 -

13For such men are false apostles, deceitful workers, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ.

14No wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light.

15Therefore it is not surprising if his servants also disguise themselves as servants of righteousness, whose end will be according to their deeds.


In these verses Paul is comparing evil men disguising themselves as good men and Satan disguising himeself as a good Angel. Why not say Satan disguises himself as a deceitful man? It would appear to me we can conclude he was a fallen Angel due to the comparisons being made. Anybody else have a different answer?
I don't think that satan being able to <i>disguise</i> himself as an angel proves that he <i>was</i> an angel any more than the ability of his servants to <i>disguise</i> themselves as righteous, proves that they <i>are</i> real servants of righteousness.

Derek
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Derek

Some trust in chariots, and some in horses: but we will remember the name of the LORD our God.
Psalm 20:7

_Micah
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Post by _Micah » Wed May 24, 2006 10:21 pm

Derek wrote:I don't think that satan being able to <i>disguise</i> himself as an angel proves that he <i>was</i> an angel any more than the ability of his servants to <i>disguise</i> themselves as righteous, proves that they <i>are</i> real servants of righteousness.
However, my point is the comparison being made...not necessarily the ability. Why compare Satan to an Angel of Light instead of the Anti-Christ? It seems Paul was inferring a comparison of abilities based on one's makeup. Using evil man vs. good man and Satan vs. Angel. Oh well, just a thought. Thanks for the response.
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_Derek
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Post by _Derek » Wed May 24, 2006 10:58 pm

Hey brother,
I think the devil is supernatural and his servants (in this context) are natural. I am assuming that is why Paul put it the way he did.

I wish the bible were more clear on the subject. Personally, I don't think the bible really explains the devils origin. At least not that I am aware of. Jesus does say that he has been what he is (liar, murderer) "from the begining." (Jn 8:44)

God bless,
Derek
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Derek

Some trust in chariots, and some in horses: but we will remember the name of the LORD our God.
Psalm 20:7

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_Paidion
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Post by _Paidion » Thu May 25, 2006 10:44 am

Jesus does say that he has been what he is (liar, murderer) "from the begining." (Jn 8:44)


This statement of our Lord's is frequently used in an attempt to show that Satan was always evil, and so could not have been created as Lucifer, Morning Star, the son of dawn.

But perhaps we should consider what "beginning" it was to which our Lord referred. My suspicion is that it was the beginning of creation, as in Genesis 1:1. Clearly Satan was fallen when he tempted Eve in the garden.
But this is no proof that he was a liar and murderer from the beginning of time.

In my opinion, he was created good and perfect like that of any other angel. The bible speaks of "angels that did not keep their first estate". Their "first estate" was not doubt that good and perfect form in which Yahweh created them. But they turned to evil. I think that Satan was the first of the angels to choose evil, and was thus the pioneer of the move into evil. Others followed him.
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"Not one soul will ever be redeemed from hell but by being saved from his sins, from the evil in him." --- George MacDonald

_Micah
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Post by _Micah » Thu May 25, 2006 10:55 am

I would agree with you Paidion. After all, doesn't it seem contradictory to tell calvanists that God can't be the author of sin, but then say Satan was created as a sinful creature from the beginning?
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_Derek
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Post by _Derek » Thu May 25, 2006 5:27 pm

Hey Paidion,
I don't really have a problem with it being about the beginning, but at the same time, the bible<b> doesn't say at all</b> that he was <b>ever</b> a perfect angel nor am I aware of any passage that says
"that Satan was the first of the angels to choose evil, and was thus the pioneer of the move into evil. Others followed him."
I am not saying that this isn't possible, only that I am not aware of the scriptures teaching such a thing. I am agnostic for now on this point.

Derek
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Derek

Some trust in chariots, and some in horses: but we will remember the name of the LORD our God.
Psalm 20:7

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_djeaton
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Post by _djeaton » Thu May 25, 2006 7:39 pm

Derek wrote:I am not saying that this isn't possible, only that I am not aware of the scriptures teaching such a thing. I am agnostic for now on this point.
I've been listening to a great podcast called Theology Unplugged. They made the point that Christians can hardly agree on the things that the Bible is real clear on. Yet where we only have a couple of verses about something, it is so easy to make a lot out of it since there is nothing of substance to refute it.
D.
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Post by _STEVE7150 » Sun May 28, 2006 11:49 am

In my opinion, he was created good and perfect like that of any other angel. The bible speaks of "angels that did not keep their first estate". Their "first estate" was not doubt that good and perfect form in which Yahweh created them. But they turned to evil. I think that Satan was the first of the angels to choose evil, and was thus the pioneer of the move into evil. Others followed him. - Paidion

I'm tending to agree on this because Satan does'nt only test us , he goes far beyond that as he is a thief,murderer,etc and it's true that God could destroy him just as God could have destroyed Hitler and numerous other hideous people but He allows evil to ripen in this age . But that does'nt necessarily mean God created Satan evil anymore then He created man evil."From the beginning" need not mean Satan's creation it could mean man's creation.
If evil spirits were really just agents for God acting out his will ,then opposing them would be worse then hopeless,it would be sin. Furthermore ,the NT portrays some evil spirits as having sinned so badly that they are now in prison awaiting judgement ,2 Peter 2.4 . God would have no cause to put these especially evil spirits in prison if they were only able to act with his permission in the first place, would He?
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Priestly1
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Re: Where did demons come from?

Post by Priestly1 » Wed Jan 14, 2009 9:10 pm

Peace,

According to the Books of Enoch, Jubilees and the Dead Sea Scrolls, the Hebrew beliefs before, during and after Christ was that the demons are the wandering spirits of the dead Nephil'im who were killed in the flood and there after. That notion is confirmed by Christ's discussion on them and human posession. According to the Book of Enoch the Nephilim were condemned by God for their evils and were to wander the earth until His Messiah comes and casts them into everlasting fire appointed for the Devil and their fathers the fallen angels known as the Beni-ha'Elohim (Hebrew Masoretic Text & LXX Text of Gen. 6:1-3).

The Beni-ha'Elohim (Sons of God) saw the heads/faces of the uncovered daughters of sons of men, and descended to earth on Mt. Hermon, after tempted by Satan to do so. Their Leaders Azazel (translated scape goat in faulty early English Bibles) and Shamyazah also told their followers to instruct humanity in forbidden sciences and arts. These fallen angels then took wives from the humans there. There they were worshipped as gods and their hybrid offspring as the gigantic demi-gods and heros (i.e. Nephil'im).

Thus the the Beni-ha'Elom, their consorts, their offspring and most of humanity began a wicked relationship and their ever increasings sins and sufferings increased until YHVH God put His foot down in the Flood. First the Fallen Angels were found guilty of leaving their proper places and forms, and corrupting mankind further and begetting abominations worse than they i.e. the Nephil'im. So they were condemned, rounded up, bound with chians and cast into the dark nether regions (i.e. Tartaus) and their to await the Last Judgment. The Pit they were cast into was a desert called Du'odel. Their offspring were cursed likewise, but had to see their Fathers captured and imprisoned. They would await their condemnation at the hand of God's Messiah, until then they would wander the earth and in their rage they seek the destruction of all mankind....posessing all they find uninhabited by God's grace.

This history is backed by the statements of the demons who confont Christ, as well as by Paul's admonition that women should cover their heads out of fear of the angels in heaven, and by Peter's and Jude's references to this in their letters. Jude even cites Enoch verbatum...equating the sins of the fallen angels with women to the preversions of the men who sought out sex with the angels sent to destroy them. The books of Enoch and Jubilees remain in the Ethiopian Old Testament canon after Job.....and are cited by early church Fathers as Scripture also. The Dead Sea scrolls prove that these Books were also in circulation among Jewry until the Fall of Jerusalem, when in 90CE these Books and the LXX Text and canon was rejected because the Nazaraeans (Christians) now used them and preached all their heresies according to them. This was the Pharasaic Synod of Jamnia, in which these rabbis took control over Judaism and revised not only the Hebrew text of the Old Testmament but also the Canon list. They also began to write down the Mishna and later the Palestinian Talmud. This is the source of the Text/Canon used by Reformed Protestantism.....never accepted by the Apostolic Church as authoritative.

In the West this demonology was supplanted by the beginning in the middle 5th Century, when Augustine rejected Enoch and Jubilees. He also introduced the idea of racial purity by saying the daughters of men meant "The daughters of Cain" and the Beni-ha'Elohim meant "The Sons of Shem." Thus the sin was the pure Race interbreeding with the impure Race. The hybrids must then be seen as corrupted half breeds.....Serpent Seed. This is the origins of such heresies. Augustine of Hippo vomited many new heresies into the West it seems....you can take the man from the Manichaeans, but you cannot take the manichaeanism from the man.

By the 7th century Augustine's views and hermanuetics spread throughout the Western Lands once known as the Roman Empire. His views were allowed, but never deemed authoritative in the Eastern Roman Empire or among the Oriental Churches. Yet most of Proestantism has never heard of the original doctrine nor accept it....they cite Rome and her Saint Augustine. The dead Sea Scrolls and Ethiopian Orthodoxy re-awakened the Church to this ancient Hebrew and Nazaraean Doctrine.



Rev. Ken Huffman

SteveF

Re: Where did demons come from?

Post by SteveF » Wed Jan 14, 2009 11:59 pm

demons are the wandering spirits of the dead Nephil'im
Ken, when I was reading the Church Fathers back in the mid-90's I'm pretty sure I remember more than one of them holding this belief. It's been so long since I read it that I don't want to say for sure. Do you happen to know....or even better, have any quotes?

I found their belief so intriguing (especially since I'd never heard it before) I actually took notes, but that was before I had a computer and I don't know where I put them.

As I recall, some of them (Church Fathers) thought the existence of the Nephil'im is where the mythology of the Greek gods likely originated. My memory could be faulty though.

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