Satan myths -- modern and past

[mikew]

Edited --added initial comment:
The identification of some items as "myth" represent my current analysis and is not intended to hinder useful discussion on the merits of such viewpoints.

The past myths about Satan include that he was ruler of demons and that he was a fallen angel. There also is no basis to say that he has possessed anyone except Judas, if possession even occurred there.

Luk 22:3 Then Satan entered into Judas called Iscariot, who was of the number of the twelve.(ESV -- e-sword.net)

Some modern myths is that Satan does not have powers or worse that Satan is not a specific creature having continuity of person and being from the time of Genesis through Revelation. Though I think some benefit is gained in seeing that Satan doesn't confer powers upon people, at least not among any significant numbers of people.

When looking at John 8:44

Joh 8:44 You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and has nothing to do with the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks out of his own character, for he is a liar and the father of lies.(ESV -- e-sword.net)

It is seen there are two different types of entities here. One is Satan, who, by influence, is the father of a bunch of people. The other type of entity is that of people who were influenced by the devil in fulfillment of Gen 3:15.

= = = =
It seems that God created Satan as an adversary to expose the wicked of the world and that Satan is a specific creature, maybe physical maybe not having to exist in the physical, that has existed from the time of Genesis until Revelation. He then can personally (not through transfer to other creatures) exercise some powers either physical or in some minds ( see Luke 4 temptation of Christ).

He may promote a spirit of disobedience, maybe design the style of behavior, but does not possess people in general.

So there are some good changes going on, but the kinks aren't ironed out.

[mikew]

There were several other thoughts...

As Steve has indicated, I would say that Satan isn't "Lucifer" --that this was just an idea carried forth from the Latin bible

Isa 14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!(KJVR -- e-sword.net)

Isa 14:12 "How you are fallen from heaven, O Day Star, son of Dawn! How you are cut down to the ground, you who laid the nations low!

One further point of evidence that Satan isn't identified as "Lucifer" is from Rev 20:2, where all the names were listed.

Rev 20:2 And he seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years,

Another thing, Satan is primarily shown to bring forth deceipt. And this deceipt has been largely of a political nature -- maybe through influencing the sort of rule or in deceiving nations into action against each other.

Rev 20:3 and threw him into the pit, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he might not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were ended. After that he must be released for a little while.
Rev 20:8 and will come out to deceive the nations that are at the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them for battle; their number is like the sand of the sea (ESV -- e-sword.net)

But then of course there was also the deception of a doctrinal nature in the verse quoted in the OP

Joh 8:44 You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and has nothing to do with the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks out of his own character, for he is a liar and the father of lies.

as combined with

Mat 13:38 The field is the world, and the good seed is the sons of the kingdom. The weeds are the sons of the evil one,
Mat 13:39 and the enemy who sowed them is the devil

where the Tares are associated with the doctrine (as an extension, in contrast, to the good seed which is the Word of the kingdom).

[Paidion]

Would God create and absolutely evil being? Does God NEED an adversary? And if so why?

I believe everything God created was GOOD (as we read in the record of physical creation in Genesis. I subscribe to the Lucifer view. He was once a beautiful angel, an archangel.

But angels have free will. For we read of angels which "abandoned their first position" and are detained in everlasting chains until the judgment. Or were they also created as evil angels?

[mikew]

But is Satan an Angel?

One thing it seems is that there is a distinction between Satan and demons (unclean spirits). So even if these unclean spirits were fallen angels, what says that Satan is?

It seems that the context of the Isa 14 passage doesn't support a shift of focus onto a spiritual being. So the passage wouldn't expectedly shift from a rebuke of the king of Babylon to a discussion of Satan.

I could see God as creating the devil for the purpose of attracting evil things together for removal/extermination. This idea especially makes sense if people are given free will, such that those disposed toward evil would become apparent for their evil motives.

[RND]

But is Satan an Angel?

Yes.

Luk 10:18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.

2Cr 11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

One thing it seems is that there is a distinction between Satan and demons (unclean spirits). So even if these unclean spirits were fallen angels, what says that Satan is?

Scripture?

It seems that the context of the Isa 14 passage doesn't support a shift of focus onto a spiritual being. So the passage wouldn't expectedly shift from a rebuke of the king of Babylon to a discussion of Satan.

It's a metaphor.

I could see God as creating the devil for the purpose of attracting evil things together for removal/extermination. This idea especially makes sense if people are given free will, such that those disposed toward evil would become apparent for their evil motives.

1) We are all disposed to evil, each and everyone of us.

Jer 17:9 The heart [is] deceitful above all [things], and desperately wicked: who can know it?

2) If people are given free will wouldn't God be better of in demonstrating His mercy and goodness (like the Cross) as opposed to trying to convince free thinkers by using evil?

Jhn 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou [then], Shew us the Father?

3) If the Bible say that Good is good, is it possible for God to created evil? Does God think evil? Is their any lies in God after all?

3Jo 1:11 Beloved, follow not that which is evil, but that which is good. He that doeth good is of God: but he that doeth evil hath not seen God.

[mikew]

But is Satan an Angel?

Yes.

Luk 10:18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.

2Cr 11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Looking at your second verse, from what was Satan transformed? I suppose you infer that he, in becoming an angel, must have been an angel beforehand.
Then in your third verse you must be saying that since he has angels that he is an angel. Well, God also has angels and therefore do we infer that God is an angel?

Maybe part of the issue here has to do with the definition of angel. Are you saying that anything unseen, by virtue of being unseen, is an angel?

Then also in Jesus speaking of Satan as being seen falling from heaven... does this not also have potential to refer to a loss of power or influence rather than having to mean that he was an angel that tripped on a cloud and was falling? The big question, with respect to Isa 14:12, was how Satan, being treated as having the name Lucifer, could again fall out of heaven?

Again, as in previous topics, you have presented scriptures that don't say the things you think they say. So are there any verses that say that Satan is an angel?

[RND]

Looking at your second verse, from what was Satan transformed? I suppose you infer that he, in becoming an angel, must have been an angel beforehand.

Not necessarily Mike. An "angel" is a messenger. Light is comparative to "truth and wisdom." Therefore I see Paul as stating that the messenger of lies and deception can indeed be seen by some as spreading "light and wisdom." Peter asked Ananias, "...why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost..." To me that implies the work that Satan does.

Then in your third verse you must be saying that since he has angels that he is an angel. Well, God also has angels and therefore do we infer that God is an angel?

"He drew...." Satan drew a third part of the angels. He lied to them, questioned God and therefore caused them to leave Heaven for chains of darkness (untruth).

God "created" the angels. Angels are on earth right?

Jhn 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Maybe part of the issue here has to do with the definition of angel. Are you saying that anything unseen, by virtue of being unseen, is an angel?

No way!

Hbr 13:2 Be not forgetful to entertain strangers: for thereby some have entertained angels unawares.

Then also in Jesus speaking of Satan as being seen falling from heaven... does this not also have potential to refer to a loss of power or influence rather than having to mean that he was an angel that tripped on a cloud and was falling? The big question, with respect to Isa 14:12, was how Satan, being treated as having the name Lucifer, could again fall out of heaven?

He was the "covering cherub" so I indeed see Satan as losing his power and influence through his lies and pride. Not much different that what is conveyed in Isaiah.

Again, as in previous topics, you have presented scriptures that don't say the things you think they say. So are there any verses that say that Satan is an angel?

The verses I presented Mike are self-evident. If not, then you have a whole boat load of Bible commentators throughout history to contend with, not just me!