Why disagree with the church fathers on eschatology

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robbyyoung
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Re: Why disagree with the church fathers on eschatology

Post by robbyyoung » Tue Oct 14, 2014 7:23 pm

steve7150 wrote: It is not correct to demand that Jesus' language meant more than Paul's use of it. We may want that to be true because we grew up expecting it to be so, but that doesn't make it so.

Didn't Jesus also say "to make disciples of all the nations"? How do you figure Rome to meet that command?
Brother steve7150, this is found in Matt 28:19, moreover, this was just answered in the above post.

God Bless.

steve7150
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Re: Why disagree with the church fathers on eschatology

Post by steve7150 » Wed Oct 15, 2014 5:49 am

steve7150 wrote:
It is not correct to demand that Jesus' language meant more than Paul's use of it. We may want that to be true because we grew up expecting it to be so, but that doesn't make it so.

Didn't Jesus also say "to make disciples of all the nations"? How do you figure Rome to meet that command?

Brother steve7150, this is found in Matt 28:19, moreover, this was just answered in the above post.

God Bless.
robbyyoung

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As you know Robby folks who are not Preterists look at these same verses and reach different conclusions. I don't think Paul was answering a question about whether the Great Commission was fulfilled.
None of the nations were made disciples and while the gospel was preached in some areas in Rome many more nations existed that never even heard the gospel. For example at that time China existed and was certainly on a par with Rome geographically and population wise yet never heard the gospel.

However at the end of Revelation we see the nations coming to the tree of life for healing which sounds more like a fulfillment then 70AD.

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robbyyoung
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Re: Why disagree with the church fathers on eschatology

Post by robbyyoung » Wed Oct 15, 2014 6:29 pm

steve7150 wrote:As you know Robby folks who are not Preterists look at these same verses and reach different conclusions. I don't think Paul was answering a question about whether the Great Commission was fulfilled.
None of the nations were made disciples and while the gospel was preached in some areas in Rome many more nations existed that never even heard the gospel. For example at that time China existed and was certainly on a par with Rome geographically and population wise yet never heard the gospel.

However at the end of Revelation we see the nations coming to the tree of life for healing which sounds more like a fulfillment then 70AD.
Brother steve7150, I'll answer your post here: http://theos.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=4587

God Bless.

dwilkins
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Re: Why disagree with the church fathers on eschatology

Post by dwilkins » Fri Oct 17, 2014 4:24 am

steve wrote:Can we believe that Eusebius was referring to AD 70 as the time of the downfall of all kingdoms, and the establishment of the godly kingdom? I suspect (though I don't know) that he was alluding to the fall of paganism, as a result of the conversion of Constantine, and the subsequent Christianization of the Empire. It seems inconceivable that the 200 years of persecution of the Church preceding Constantine's conversion would have been described by Eusebius as the season following the fall of all pagan kingdoms. If the kingdoms had fallen, why were the emperors still wasting the saints? Come to think of it, if the kingdoms have fallen, why do many kingdoms still waste the Church? To describe these centuries of persecution as having taken place following the fall of the kingdoms would seem bizarre.
I hope this quoted section from the beginning of Book 3 is not too long, but it seems to me to be clear that he did indeed consider these things including the Great Commission to be accomplished, regardless of what Piper and Wright divine from the Greek:

1. BECAUSE 1 then, human life had undergone a change, through the things already mentioned, to a state henceforth of peace and rest, and had been prepared to receive the perfect doctrine relating to God; well again, did the common Saviour of all, the only (begotten) WORD OF GOD, the King of all, shew forth the divine revelation of Himself by very deeds, and at the time which was suitable. For, immediately and at once, when He appeared in the world, those things which appertained to the ancient service of Demons, were undone by the overthrow as it were, of (some ruinous) war-engine; tidings announcing good things were preached to all nations, and God who is over all, the Propitiator of the children of men, was announced. The whole error of a plurality of Gods was also overthrown, and all the operations of demons were forthwith cast aside. Men again were no more sacrificed ; nor were the slaughterings of human beings, which from former times had ruined the world, (persevered in). Nor again, were there multitudes of Rulers, Princes, Tyrants, and Governours of |156 the people. Nor again, existed those things, on account of which wars, and the reduction of cities, had been set on foot in every city and place: on the contrary, one God was preached to all men : the one empire too of the Romans had extended itself over all : and the peaceless and uncompromising enmity, which had so long been the portion of the nations, came to an entire end. And, as the knowledge of the one God, and of one just and righteous conduct resulting therefrom, was, by the teaching of our Saviour, delivered to all men; so also one king, at one and the same time, was established over the whole Roman empire, and a profound peace prevailed in every thing. At once too, and at one period, as it were at the intimation of the one God, two singular advantages sprung up among mankind ; the Instruction that was in righteousness, and the Empire of the Romans. For formerly, this error of the Demons had grievously enslaved the nations: and, as the whole had been divided into many (parts), some taking Syria by way of portion; others bearing rule in Asia; others, in Macedonia; others cutting up and seizing upon Egypt; others, in like manner, upon the country of Arabia: the race of the Jews again, had possession of Palestine2. And, in every village, city, and place, they were, as from madness (and) like marauders and demoniacs in reality, careful (only) about warfare and contention one against another;--of which enough has already been said.

2. But (now), two great Powers sprung fully up, as (it were) out of one stream; and they gave peace to all, and brought all together to a state of friendship : (namely) the Roman Empire, which, from that time, appeared (as) one kingdom ; and, the Power of the Saviour of all, whose |157 aid was at once extended to, and established with, every one. For, the divine superiority of our Saviour swept away the authority of the many Demons, and many Gods; so that the one kingdom of God was preached to all men Greeks and Barbarians, and to those who (resided) in the extremities of the earth. The Roman Empire too,-- since those had been previously uprooted who had been the cause of the rule of many--soon subjugated all (others), and quickly brought together into one state of accordance and agreement, the whole race of (man). And, behold ! it henceforth brought together such a multitude of nations, as soon to take possession (of all), even to the extremities of the earth; the teaching3 of our Saviour having, by the divine power, already prepared all parties, and established (all) in a state of equanimity. And this is indeed a great miracle to those, who set their minds on the love of truth, and are unwilling to be envious against that which is good. For at once, was the error of evil Demons put out of sight; and, at the same time, did the enmity and contention of the nations, which had always existed, lose its power: and again, at the same time, was the one God and the one knowledge of Him, preached to all men through the teaching of our Saviour: at the same time too, was the empire of the Romans4 established among men; and, at once, was the (state or) the whole race of man changed to (that) of peace; and all, professing a common brotherhood, betook themselves to the instructing of their own nature. Forthwith too, they became born, as it were, of one (common) Father, and as the children of the one God ; of one Mother too, righteousness and truth; and so received they one another with the salutation of peace, that henceforward the whole creation was nothing less than as one household, and as a race governed by one law. It was (now) practicable too, that any desiring to send, for the purposes of merchandise, and to proceed, whithersoever he pleased, to do this with the greatest facility. Those of the West could come without |158 danger to the East: and again, those who were here (in the East) could proceed thither as to the house of their own fathers, according to the words of ancient prophecy, and of many other burdens of the Prophets, which we have not now leisure to mention, excepting these respecting our Saviour, the WORD OF GOD, which proclaimed thus: " He shall have dominion from sea to sea, and from the rivers to the extremities of the earth5:" and again, "In his days shall righteousness spring forth, and abundance of peace6 :" and again. " They shall beat their swords into ploughshares, and their spears into reaping hooks7, and nation shall not lift up the sword against nation; nor shall they learn war8."

3. These things were foretold in the language of the Hebrews, (and) have been published a very long time ago: they are now in our times witnessed in their operation, confirming the testimonies of those ancient declarations9. If then, thou desire other proofs of the excellency of the truth, (shewing) that it is not of mortal nature, but is the word of God in truth; and (that) the "power of God," the Saviour, has been revealed in the world, not by words (only), but by deeds; accept thou of them. |159 Open the eyes of thy understanding, unbar the doors of thy mind; and let thy soul be wholly collected within thee. Consider and ask thyself, as if thou wert interrogated by another, and thus investigate the nature of the things (to be brought before thee).

4. Who, of those that ever existed, is the mortal man, King, Philosopher, Lawgiver, or Prophet, whether Greek or Barbarian, who bore all this pre-eminence,--not after his death, but while he was still alive, and drew breath;-- and could effect so much, that he should be preached throughout the whole earth ? and, that his name should fill the hearing, and tongues of every people upon the face of the whole earth ? But this, no man has done excepting our Saviour alone, who said to his disciples by word, and fulfilled it by deed: " Go and teach all nations10." He said (also) to them,--what He had foretold and previously revealed,--that it was necessary His Gospel should be preached throughout the whole creation, for a testimony to all nations11. And, with the word, He brought the deed also to pass: for, immediately,--and not at a great distance of time,--the whole creation was filled with His words !

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