I-Monk article on Andrew Perriman

[RickC]

Greetings,

I could have done this post under Teachers & Movements, but chose Eschatology, as Andrew Perriman's perspectives relate specifically to it.

Briefly, before I post the link which gives an overall summary of Andrew's ideas, I'll do a quick summary of my own first.

Andrew uses what he calls a "narrative-historical hermeneutic." In essence, he makes some of the most in-depth and "serious" (for lack of vocab) studies into what the original authors and their audiences would have understood at the time of writing.

This, of course, is what virtually all Christian thinkers "say" they try to do. But seldom are their efforts separate from the post-biblical doctrinal paradigms we've inherited, so to speak.

I'd recommend Andrew's blog (linked to below) and his books, especially for anyone interested in "end times" stuff. Andrew has been called a preterist and full preterist, but he doesn't identify with post-biblical doctrinal groupings.

Here's the I-Monk link: The Big Picture of Andrew Perriman’s Narrative-Historical Scheme, by Chaplain Mike

I'd be interested in any discussion from the article or related topics.

Thanks!

[RickC]

I'll go ahead & post (from Andrew's blog):

The narrative-historical method -- an outline

A rather long read, but very well worth it, imo!

Btw, his blog is "p.ost" --- which the name I figured out on my own. Andrew's former blog was Open Source Theology (post open source theology, p.ost). "OST" is still online & is an excellent resource!

[dwilkins]

Though he occasionally comes to conclusions that I disagree with, Perriman is a very important thinker in my opinion. He does his best to take audience relevance seriously when most people only give it lip service. I highly recommend his book on Romans:

http://www.amazon.com/The-Future-People ... 1606087878

Doug

[Michelle]

I have a question, which before I ask, I need to admit that I haven't read all the links in this thread (and the one I have read, I kind of skimmed.)

Here is Chaplain Mike's summary of Andrew Perriman's interpretation of the New Testament message:

1. The “Gospel” is not a universal theological message of personal salvation, but must be understood as a message intimately connected to the historical circumstances in which it was given.
2. Jesus’ gospel of the kingdom was a message of judgment and salvation for Israel in the light of the pending crisis of 70AD.
3. The apostles’ gospel was a message to the nations that God had made Jesus King and would, through him, bring judgment and salvation to the Greek-Roman pagan world, which reached its climax in the establishment of Christendom.
4. There is an ultimate day of judgment and salvation coming which will inaugurate the new creation.
5. The church is now witnessing the collapse of Christendom, which is prompting the church to reevaluate how to be a faithful eschatological community of mission in a post-Christendom world.

Jesus said to Nicodemus:

[Jhn 3:16 ESV] "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

Would Andrew Perriman say this was for Jewish believers before 70 AD only? Or, maybe for them plus the grafted in Gentiles of that time as well?

[robbyyoung]

Greetings,

I could have done this post under Teachers & Movements, but chose Eschatology, as Andrew Perriman's perspectives relate specifically to it.

Briefly, before I post the link which gives an overall summary of Andrew's ideas, I'll do a quick summary of my own first.

Andrew uses what he calls a "narrative-historical hermeneutic." In essence, he makes some of the most in-depth and "serious" (for lack of vocab) studies into what the original authors and their audiences would have understood at the time of writing.

This, of course, is what virtually all Christian thinkers "say" they try to do. But seldom are their efforts separate from the post-biblical doctrinal paradigms we've inherited, so to speak.

I'd recommend Andrew's blog (linked to below) and his books, especially for anyone interested in "end times" stuff. Andrew has been called a preterist and full preterist, but he doesn't identify with post-biblical doctrinal groupings.

Here's the I-Monk link: The Big Picture of Andrew Perriman’s Narrative-Historical Scheme, by Chaplain Mike

I'd be interested in any discussion from the article or related topics.

Thanks!

Hi RickC,

Like Andrew, I take historical context and audience relevance very seriously, so much so, I believe it's the key to pretty much knowing where we stand today in the grand scheme of things. I have not read all of Andrew's thoughts and ideas, but I will set some time aside in this effort. Nevertheless, I see Andrew as stopping short of all the events which ended the Old Covenant Age, namely within The Big Three; The Judgement, The Resurrection, and The Second Coming. Andrew presupposes The Judgment/The Restoration of the creation as still future. He does this because of his approach to The Age To Come as pertinent to the our earthly realm. I believe this is a mistake. Therefore please critique my understanding.

I believe The Age to Come, spoken by Yeshua and The Apostles, focuses primarily on the Unseen Realm. Where all believers assume their position(s) In Christ, starting with the Wrath of God judgment upon Israel in 68AD, and continuing on to this very day. Remember, The Church was taken (Raptured) before 68AD, then sat in judgment alongside Christ against Israel from 68-70AD. Revelation 21:1-7 gives us what this "Age to Come" looks like, in the unseen realm. Have you ever noticed the following verses in regards to The Age to Come?

Mark 10:30 but that he will receive a hundred times as much now in the present age, houses and brothers and sisters and mothers and children and farms, along with persecutions; and in the age to come, eternal life.

Notice that only in The Age to Come would they realize "eternal life" but, this is the same generation that will undergo severe tribulation, so much so, that the days had to be shortened, else nobody would make it! Therefore, most Christians were killed and those remaining experienced the "Rapture". So if The Age to Come was realized in "this earthly realm", this statement would make no sense!

Hebrews 6:4-5 For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come...

Wait a minute! If we are in The Age to Come, realized in this earthly realm, WHERE ARE THESE POWERS??? And please let's not water-down what these POWERS are. For are they not greater than the works Yeshua did Himself? (John 14:12). But, what are the children of God doing in the "Unseen Realm" in which The Age to Come is realized?

Last one... Ephesians 2:7 so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.

Wow! So how long does this NT Writer and his audience (US), plan on living? An earthly existence is sure not in view. This is referring to multiple ages! Again, this is the same generation of Believers that will not live past the close of the Old Covenant Age, unless they are blessed to be "Raptured". Therefore, this wonderful passage is realized in the Unseen Realm.

Post 70AD, we are simply "Outside The Gates of the City" until the prayer of Yeshua is realized in our lives (John 17:20). Then we die and enter the realized Age to Come in the Unseen Realm.

God Bless

[Homer]

robbyyoung wrote:

Notice that only in The Age to Come would they realize "eternal life" but, this is the same generation that will undergo severe tribulation, so much so, that the days had to be shortened, else nobody would make it! Therefore, most Christians were killed and those remaining experienced the "Rapture". So if The Age to Come was realized in "this earthly realm", this statement would make no sense!

So all the Christians were dead or taken away from the earth? So tell me again how the Christian religion got started up again and spread rapidly? Must be some record of this somewhere.

[Michelle]

Post 70AD, we are simply "Outside The Gates of the City" until the prayer of Yeshua is realized in our lives (John 17:20). Then we die and enter the realized Age to Come in the Unseen Realm.

So we, too, can attain eternal life; we are included in the prayer as believers through their word. (John 17:20) However, we have no share in the power (Hebrews 6:5) or the riches of his grace in kindness (Ephesians 2:7), right?

[robbyyoung]

Hi Homer, my response is in RED.

robbyyoung wrote:

Notice that only in The Age to Come would they realize "eternal life" but, this is the same generation that will undergo severe tribulation, so much so, that the days had to be shortened, else nobody would make it! Therefore, most Christians were killed and those remaining experienced the "Rapture". So if The Age to Come was realized in "this earthly realm", this statement would make no sense!

So all the Christians were dead or taken away from the earth? Yes, Homer. So tell me again how the Christian religion got started up again and spread rapidly? Must be some record of this somewhere. Homer, this is the power of The Age to Come. This is God's doing and His Kingdom now penetrates all the world. No longer is He an Obscure Hebrew God, but now known and available to all of humanity. We DO NOT know all the details concerning how the unseen realm, the realm in which Yeshua said His Kingdom resides, affects change on earth. But clearly, in this new age, Yeshua and The Saints in the heavenly realm are not just sitting around doing nothing! Here are some great teachings by Ed Stevens concerning the matter:

http://www.buzzsprout.com/11633/93122-w ... istians-go
http://www.buzzsprout.com/11633/95631-h ... e-parousia
http://www.buzzsprout.com/11633/99328-r ... s-answered
http://www.buzzsprout.com/11633/113563- ... heol-hades

God Bless

[robbyyoung]

Post 70AD, we are simply "Outside The Gates of the City" until the prayer of Yeshua is realized in our lives (John 17:20). Then we die and enter the realized Age to Come in the Unseen Realm.

So we, too, can attain eternal life; we are included in the prayer as believers through their word. (John 17:20) However, we have no share in the power (Hebrews 6:5) or the riches of his grace in kindness (Ephesians 2:7), right?

Hi Michelle,

I believe the realized power and riches are fully experienced in the Unseen Realm, where Yeshua's Kingdom resides and The Age to Come is primarily focused. Basically, The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual. The Age to Come is therefore focused on the unseen realm. All previous ages were natural but not the age(s) which was to come. This is the BIG difference. Eph 2:7 is a promise to that generation, as they go to reside in the spiritual realm, of God's ongoing blessings in His Kingdom. This doesn't mean His grace and kindness isn't relevant to those who come afterwards. For the Kingdom takes in new residents everyday, and have been since 70AD!

God Bless

[Michelle]

Thanks, robbyyoung. We can hope that we will benefit from the power and the riches, but we aren't specifically promised such. Got it.

You've said twice here (once to me and once to Homer) that Yeshua and His kingdom reside in the Unseen Realm. In other places (like here and here) you say that YAHWEH has tabernacled with us since 70AD. I don't know what you mean by 'tabernacled with us'; I thought that term referred to the incarnation. Do you believe that Yeshua is still in his body? Is he here, in the Unseen Realm, or both?

If Yeshua and the saints of 70AD are powerfully affecting us in the Seen Realm (is this the correct term??), how are misguided futurist Christians able to cause such misery in the world? Also, can't they (the raptured saints) do something about ISIS?