Just a quick note that might be useful to you in your study.
I found out recently that there is a textual variance in Rev 20:5a (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended)
Interestingly, it is not included in the following manuscripts (Aleph, Ma Pt., g, i1/3, and all copies of the Aramaic Peshitta New Testament)
Duncan McKenzie, in the Antichrist and the Second Coming, volume 1 talks about this and states the opinions of Aune and R. H. Charles who argue that it should be excluded from the English texts.
As stated by D Wilkinson in his book making sense of the millenium, "the fact that the only passage in the scripture that proposes two resurrections has a critical textual variant in it (one of the only theologically important textual variants in scripture) brings into question the church's orthodox stance on the topic."
- Douglas
Input greatly desired
Re: Input greatly desired
1. I would believe the promise of no more tears seems related to those in the new heaven and the new earth, which I believe we are in. Is 65 shows the heavenly Jerusalem is founded for rejoicing.dwilkins wrote:I'm going to suggest a few foundational keys to the way that the Bible presents history and then challenge you to keep your paradigm within those bounds.
1) The Bible talks about life on earth and life in heaven. Some of the passages apply to one and some apply to the other. Switching between them is not always clear without bringing in additional passages. However, when we keep in mind that promises such as that there will be no more tears etc., these are made to a certain group of people in a certain place (to the believers in the New Jerusalem in this case) and not necessarily to everyone at all times, or everyone after a certain time.
2) There is some sort of limit to the experience of humans in heaven before the eschaton. Before that date we see human souls in the sea of glass or some similar imagery, but it's clear that before the final judgment is applied they are not personally allowed into the Temple in Revelation's imagery. This parallels the pattern of thought around the function of Hades, Abraham's Bosom, the New Jerusalem in Hebrews, etc. However, at some point God will fully dwell with man. When and where he starts to finally do so in the fullest manner is a key piece to this.
3) There are all sorts of passages in the Old Testament that declare that there will be no end to the generations of man on earth. If we take those as seriously or literally as we take other passages I think it should make us pause for a moment to think about what scripture is actually proposing about human history.
4) There are a number of passages in scripture that clearly describe the earth lasting perpetually. Again, this is a major challenge to normal approaches to creation.
5) The kingdom promises of Israel (admittedly spiritualized under the New Covenant) clearly show how that the perpetual state will be one in which the kings and peoples of the earth perpetually bring honor and riches into the new Jerusalem. This flatly requires indefinite ongoing human history on earth.
These five points above speak to the primary mistake I think you are making right now. There is no such thing as the end of humanity at the end of the millennium. I'll try to tell you in detail how I think this works out when I get back from an appointment in a couple of hours.
Doug
2. Not sure I follow, other than I agree we have a limited experience on earth of what direct life with God will be like.
3. I have considered that eternal generations will go through the human on earth grinder, and heaven is just always being filled more and more, but I don't see it supported. I believe the greater possibility is that endless generations relates to endless the same idea as endless hell, which has been talked to death can really not mean endless. I believe science disproves the young earth, 6 day creation, and I believe science disproves that the world can exist forever. An end must come, even if it takes anther 10-20,000 years before the sun dies out, or something else happens. Stars, of which the sun is a huge one, all die out at some point. I believe it is the nature of nature at this point to die out.
4. Again, the idea of eternal not always meaning eternal. A topic one can read up on in any number of the hell threads.
5. If you are referring to the kingdom promises from the OT, I believe many were anticipatory of Christ, and were redefined, or their true meaning was found, to apply spiritually when Israel was shown to not always mean Israel by Paul. If the promises relate to the kingdom of heaven or the kingdom of God, then can't the kingdom of God come, and the promises be forever fulfilled?
As for the millennium, while I agree the 1000 years is not literal, I do not see that what happens to the symbols throughout Revelation can be dismissed. The millennium represents a time, and that time is represented as having an end. If you want to talk about the references to endless generations, then if the millennium is endless, why is it not referred to in the same way as the generations, but is only given a relatively short symbolic 1000 years compared to endlessness?
All this aside, I am still interested in hearing your details. I take anything and everything I can to learn from.
Re: Input greatly desired
If I’d taken a little more time with the first post I think I’d have been a little more clear on a couple of points. Sorry for any confusion. The primary point I could have explained better is that I am not proposing that the physical universe and earthly human history will last for literal infinity. I’m simply saying that the time horizon of scripture describes it as existing within its own definition. In other words, when scripture says that the world will last forever, and that generations of humans will be raised forever, that lasts as long as the time horizon of scripture. At some point either the big crunch or big freeze will do in the universe as we know it. Scripture simply doesn't talk about that.
My second point was based on the chronology of resurrection from Hades. In the Old Testament dead people went to Hades. The common understanding in most evangelical circles is that the good guys went to Abraham’s Bosom while the bad guys went to some negative compartment. But, everyone was in Hades looking forward to the resurrection. At some point in the future from that time there would be a resurrection where all of the good guys would end up in heaven. The question is how that transition is portrayed in scripture. I'd argue that this didn't happen fully until the general resurrection of Rev. 20:4. I'd also argue that the new paradigm after that initial wave of judgment is that going forward as people die they are immediately judged for good or evil.
A connected point is the status of the Old Covenant in the time of the New Testament. I think that Hebrews clearly shows that the Old Covenant was still in effect for Jews during this period. The Levitical imagery had been fulfilled, and the Old Covenant was made obsolete, but it hadn’t quite faded away yet. If that is true, and the two worlds that scripture proposes refer to the Old and New Covenants, then it wasn’t until the complete end of the Old Covenant that the New Heaven and New Earth came into effect per Rev. 21:1. I think you can see this in Isaiah 65 and 66, which you are studying. The transition to the NHNE doesn’t happen until the cataclysm in which the apostate members of the Old Covenant are punished. Preterism proposes that this is seen in history in 70AD, not 30AD.
The millennium is a tricky subject. Fortunately, it looks like you are coming to it from an essentially Amillennial point of view so we can narrow our focus. In both Premillennialism and Amillennialism both the thousand year detention of Satan and the thousand year reign of the saints happen in perfect parallel. In Amillennialism the release of Satan is directly associated with the 42 month function of the Beast who forces a mark on men. The problem is that, per Rev. 20:4-6, the saints who reign for a thousand years only do so after having been killed by the Beast for not taking the mark. In other words, in Amillennialism the saints are being raised from something that doesn’t happen until after the end of their reign. A precisely parallel millennial period is therefore impossible.
I suggest that you look carefully at the structure of Revelation and the relationship between these periods given the structure of Daniel 7. As Duncan McKenzie has skillfully pointed out the saint’s portion of Rev. 20 (vs.4-6 and vs.11-15) are described in Daniel as a single event. So, the thrones being placed, the books opened, and the saints being given a kingdom happen at essentially the same time. It is certainly not described as being spread out over a thousand or several thousand years. In Daniel 7:18, 22, and 27 this reign of the saints is said to last forever. In Revelation 22:1-5, where an expanded explanation of the conditions found in the NHNE is found, the reign of the saints is said to last forever. But, Rev. 20:4-6, 11-15 are parallel to Daniel 7, and I'd argue that Rev. 22:1-5 is adding detail to Rev. 20. I suggest that this means that the thousand has a symbolic meaning that has been qualified by parallel passages and those passages are more clear that this reign lasts as long as the time horizon of scripture.
On the other hand, Satan’s detention is said to last for a thousand years, but there is a caveat not found for the saint’s thousand years. In Satan’s case it is said to end just before the battle of Armageddon found in chapter 19 and elsewhere.
Putting this together, Satan’s reign (whenever it starts) is said to end just before the battle of Armageddon. I think that Amillennialism is correct to say that this final period is synonymous with the function of the Beast, where he obligates men to take his mark for the 42 months leading up to that cataclysm. The saints who are killed during this 42 month period are then raised for the judgment against the Beast and his followers, who are also raised at that time. The saints continue to reign forever.
I’m sure that this proposal raises a number of questions (maybe more than it answers at first). But, it is a framework I’ve been working on for a couple of years. I have refined it as I was challenged on a few things, so I welcome any input you might have.
I’d like to make one final point on the structure of the vision in Rev. 20. As Poythress points out in his book “The Returning King” (based strongly on White’s analysis) there are seven cycles of repeating stories happening throughout Revelation. The last one is probably Rev. 20:1 through 21:8. After that, per his habit earlier in the book, John goes back to explain some of the characters or situations he has just talked about. This means that the NHNE in Rev. 21 happens at the climax of the events in Rev. 20, which is basically the inauguration of the Great White Throne Judgment. In a normal Amillennial paradigm this wouldn’t be a problem since the NHNE happen at the end of time (though I doubt they've thought much about using that phrase to describe it). But, I think you’re going to have a hard time fitting that in to what you are proposing since you are trying to combine the Amillennial assumption that there is an end of time or history in the scripture with the idea of an ongoing NHNE condition on earth.
Doug
My second point was based on the chronology of resurrection from Hades. In the Old Testament dead people went to Hades. The common understanding in most evangelical circles is that the good guys went to Abraham’s Bosom while the bad guys went to some negative compartment. But, everyone was in Hades looking forward to the resurrection. At some point in the future from that time there would be a resurrection where all of the good guys would end up in heaven. The question is how that transition is portrayed in scripture. I'd argue that this didn't happen fully until the general resurrection of Rev. 20:4. I'd also argue that the new paradigm after that initial wave of judgment is that going forward as people die they are immediately judged for good or evil.
A connected point is the status of the Old Covenant in the time of the New Testament. I think that Hebrews clearly shows that the Old Covenant was still in effect for Jews during this period. The Levitical imagery had been fulfilled, and the Old Covenant was made obsolete, but it hadn’t quite faded away yet. If that is true, and the two worlds that scripture proposes refer to the Old and New Covenants, then it wasn’t until the complete end of the Old Covenant that the New Heaven and New Earth came into effect per Rev. 21:1. I think you can see this in Isaiah 65 and 66, which you are studying. The transition to the NHNE doesn’t happen until the cataclysm in which the apostate members of the Old Covenant are punished. Preterism proposes that this is seen in history in 70AD, not 30AD.
The millennium is a tricky subject. Fortunately, it looks like you are coming to it from an essentially Amillennial point of view so we can narrow our focus. In both Premillennialism and Amillennialism both the thousand year detention of Satan and the thousand year reign of the saints happen in perfect parallel. In Amillennialism the release of Satan is directly associated with the 42 month function of the Beast who forces a mark on men. The problem is that, per Rev. 20:4-6, the saints who reign for a thousand years only do so after having been killed by the Beast for not taking the mark. In other words, in Amillennialism the saints are being raised from something that doesn’t happen until after the end of their reign. A precisely parallel millennial period is therefore impossible.
I suggest that you look carefully at the structure of Revelation and the relationship between these periods given the structure of Daniel 7. As Duncan McKenzie has skillfully pointed out the saint’s portion of Rev. 20 (vs.4-6 and vs.11-15) are described in Daniel as a single event. So, the thrones being placed, the books opened, and the saints being given a kingdom happen at essentially the same time. It is certainly not described as being spread out over a thousand or several thousand years. In Daniel 7:18, 22, and 27 this reign of the saints is said to last forever. In Revelation 22:1-5, where an expanded explanation of the conditions found in the NHNE is found, the reign of the saints is said to last forever. But, Rev. 20:4-6, 11-15 are parallel to Daniel 7, and I'd argue that Rev. 22:1-5 is adding detail to Rev. 20. I suggest that this means that the thousand has a symbolic meaning that has been qualified by parallel passages and those passages are more clear that this reign lasts as long as the time horizon of scripture.
On the other hand, Satan’s detention is said to last for a thousand years, but there is a caveat not found for the saint’s thousand years. In Satan’s case it is said to end just before the battle of Armageddon found in chapter 19 and elsewhere.
Putting this together, Satan’s reign (whenever it starts) is said to end just before the battle of Armageddon. I think that Amillennialism is correct to say that this final period is synonymous with the function of the Beast, where he obligates men to take his mark for the 42 months leading up to that cataclysm. The saints who are killed during this 42 month period are then raised for the judgment against the Beast and his followers, who are also raised at that time. The saints continue to reign forever.
I’m sure that this proposal raises a number of questions (maybe more than it answers at first). But, it is a framework I’ve been working on for a couple of years. I have refined it as I was challenged on a few things, so I welcome any input you might have.
I’d like to make one final point on the structure of the vision in Rev. 20. As Poythress points out in his book “The Returning King” (based strongly on White’s analysis) there are seven cycles of repeating stories happening throughout Revelation. The last one is probably Rev. 20:1 through 21:8. After that, per his habit earlier in the book, John goes back to explain some of the characters or situations he has just talked about. This means that the NHNE in Rev. 21 happens at the climax of the events in Rev. 20, which is basically the inauguration of the Great White Throne Judgment. In a normal Amillennial paradigm this wouldn’t be a problem since the NHNE happen at the end of time (though I doubt they've thought much about using that phrase to describe it). But, I think you’re going to have a hard time fitting that in to what you are proposing since you are trying to combine the Amillennial assumption that there is an end of time or history in the scripture with the idea of an ongoing NHNE condition on earth.
Doug
Re: Input greatly desired
What is this "it" that is not included in Sinaiticus, etc.? Do you mean the whole of verse 5? Or do you mean the variant "ανεζησαν" (lived again) as opposed to "εζησαν" (lived)? Textus Receptus has the former, whereas Westcott-Hort has the latter.Douglas wrote:I found out recently that there is a textual variance in Rev 20:5a (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended)
Interestingly, it is not included in the following manuscripts (Aleph, Ma Pt., g, i1/3, and all copies of the Aramaic Peshitta New Testament)
Paidion
Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.
Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.
Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.
Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.
Re: Input greatly desired
The two variants would result in the two versions of v.5 below:Paidion wrote:What is this "it" that is not included in Sinaiticus, etc.? Do you mean the whole of verse 5? Or do you mean the variant "ανεζησαν" (lived again) as opposed to "εζησαν" (lived)? Textus Receptus has the former, whereas Westcott-Hort has the latter.Douglas wrote:I found out recently that there is a textual variance in Rev 20:5a (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended)
Interestingly, it is not included in the following manuscripts (Aleph, Ma Pt., g, i1/3, and all copies of the Aramaic Peshitta New Testament)
Rev 20:5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended. This is the first resurrection.
Rev 20:5 This is the first resurrection.
In the version with the variant there is, for the first time in scripture, the proposition of two eschatological resurrections. Elsewhere the eschatological resurrection is of both the righteous and unrighteous for judgement at the last day. Here, the two eschatologically important resurrections are separated by 1,000 years. The following is the whole section with the variant (it's what you're used to reading, though some versions put the variant in parenthesis because it obviously messes up the flow of the passage):
Rev 20:4 Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom the authority to judge was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
Rev 20:5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended. This is the first resurrection.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection! Over such the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him for a thousand years.
In the version without the variant the passage simply says that the resurrection that the believers enjoy is one that is immune from the second death. Since "first" is taken from protos, and protos can mean either first in quantity or quality, I suggest that it is possible that John had the idea of a "better resurrection" in mind, as opposed to a sequentially first resurrection. In other words, the better resurrection is the one where you don't die in the second death. Here is the passage without the variant:
Rev 20:4 Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom the authority to judge was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
Rev 20:5 This is the first resurrection.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection! Over such the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him for a thousand years.
This is one of two theologically very important textual variants that I'm aware of. The other is in 1st Cor. 15:51. There are actually five traditions with that one.
Doug
Re: Input greatly desired
Since you were asking about how to understand Rev. 21, I thought I’d comment on it. I don’t think it can be done without bringing in the other surrounding passages, so I hope you don’t mind me using the connected parts of 20 and 22. I broke it up with topical headings from my perspective.
Vision Cycle Seven
Rev 20:1 Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, holding in his hand the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain.
Rev 20:2 And he seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years,
Rev 20:3 and threw him into the pit, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he might not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were ended. After that he must be released for a little while.
Rev 20:4 Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom the authority to judge was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
Rev 20:5 (5a mod) This is the first resurrection.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection! Over such the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him for a thousand years.
Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are ended, Satan will be released from his prison
Rev 20:8 and will come out to deceive the nations that are at the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them for battle; their number is like the sand of the sea.
Rev 20:9 And they marched up over the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, but fire came down from heaven and consumed them,
Rev 20:10 and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
Rev 20:11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. From his presence earth and sky fled away, and no place was found for them.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done.
Rev 20:14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.
Rev 20:15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
Rev 21:1 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more.
Rev 21:2 And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
Rev 21:3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, "Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man. He will dwell with them, and they will be his people, and God himself will be with them as their God.
Rev 21:4 He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away."
Rev 21:5 And he who was seated on the throne said, "Behold, I am making all things new." Also he said, "Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true."
Rev 21:6 And he said to me, "It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. To the thirsty I will give from the spring of the water of life without payment.
Rev 21:7 The one who conquers will have this heritage, and I will be his God and he will be my son.
Rev 21:8 But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death."
End of vision cycle seven
Per Poythress and White this is one unified vision. It is the last of seven. The climax of the vision is the NHNE. They propose that though the stories may not track the same, the punch line of each vision is the same moment. Looking at the Trumpets and Bowls it seems obvious that they each terminate with the Second Coming.
Start of explanation
Rev 21:9 Then came one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls full of the seven last plagues and spoke to me, saying, "Come, I will show you the Bride, the wife of the Lamb."
Rev 21:10 And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great, high mountain, and showed me the holy city Jerusalem coming down out of heaven from God,
Rev 21:11 having the glory of God, its radiance like a most rare jewel, like a jasper, clear as crystal.
Rev 21:12 It had a great, high wall, with twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and on the gates the names of the twelve tribes of the sons of Israel were inscribed—
Rev 21:13 on the east three gates, on the north three gates, on the south three gates, and on the west three gates.
Rev 21:14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the twelve names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
Rev 21:15 And the one who spoke with me had a measuring rod of gold to measure the city and its gates and walls.
Rev 21:16 The city lies foursquare, its length the same as its width. And he measured the city with his rod, 12,000 stadia. Its length and width and height are equal.
Rev 21:17 He also measured its wall, 144 cubits by human measurement, which is also an angel's measurement.
Rev 21:18 The wall was built of jasper, while the city was pure gold, like clear glass.
Rev 21:19 The foundations of the wall of the city were adorned with every kind of jewel. The first was jasper, the second sapphire, the third agate, the fourth emerald,
Rev 21:20 the fifth onyx, the sixth carnelian, the seventh chrysolite, the eighth beryl, the ninth topaz, the tenth chrysoprase, the eleventh jacinth, the twelfth amethyst.
Vision Cycle Seven
Rev 20:1 Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, holding in his hand the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain.
Rev 20:2 And he seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years,
Rev 20:3 and threw him into the pit, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he might not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were ended. After that he must be released for a little while.
Rev 20:4 Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom the authority to judge was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
Rev 20:5 (5a mod) This is the first resurrection.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection! Over such the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him for a thousand years.
Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are ended, Satan will be released from his prison
Rev 20:8 and will come out to deceive the nations that are at the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them for battle; their number is like the sand of the sea.
Rev 20:9 And they marched up over the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, but fire came down from heaven and consumed them,
Rev 20:10 and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
Rev 20:11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. From his presence earth and sky fled away, and no place was found for them.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done.
Rev 20:14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.
Rev 20:15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
Rev 21:1 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more.
Rev 21:2 And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
Rev 21:3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, "Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man. He will dwell with them, and they will be his people, and God himself will be with them as their God.
Rev 21:4 He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away."
Rev 21:5 And he who was seated on the throne said, "Behold, I am making all things new." Also he said, "Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true."
Rev 21:6 And he said to me, "It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. To the thirsty I will give from the spring of the water of life without payment.
Rev 21:7 The one who conquers will have this heritage, and I will be his God and he will be my son.
Rev 21:8 But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death."
End of vision cycle seven
Per Poythress and White this is one unified vision. It is the last of seven. The climax of the vision is the NHNE. They propose that though the stories may not track the same, the punch line of each vision is the same moment. Looking at the Trumpets and Bowls it seems obvious that they each terminate with the Second Coming.
Start of explanation
Rev 21:9 Then came one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls full of the seven last plagues and spoke to me, saying, "Come, I will show you the Bride, the wife of the Lamb."
Rev 21:10 And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great, high mountain, and showed me the holy city Jerusalem coming down out of heaven from God,
Rev 21:11 having the glory of God, its radiance like a most rare jewel, like a jasper, clear as crystal.
Rev 21:12 It had a great, high wall, with twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and on the gates the names of the twelve tribes of the sons of Israel were inscribed—
Rev 21:13 on the east three gates, on the north three gates, on the south three gates, and on the west three gates.
Rev 21:14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the twelve names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
Rev 21:15 And the one who spoke with me had a measuring rod of gold to measure the city and its gates and walls.
Rev 21:16 The city lies foursquare, its length the same as its width. And he measured the city with his rod, 12,000 stadia. Its length and width and height are equal.
Rev 21:17 He also measured its wall, 144 cubits by human measurement, which is also an angel's measurement.
Rev 21:18 The wall was built of jasper, while the city was pure gold, like clear glass.
Rev 21:19 The foundations of the wall of the city were adorned with every kind of jewel. The first was jasper, the second sapphire, the third agate, the fourth emerald,
Rev 21:20 the fifth onyx, the sixth carnelian, the seventh chrysolite, the eighth beryl, the ninth topaz, the tenth chrysoprase, the eleventh jacinth, the twelfth amethyst.
Re: Input greatly desired
Rev 21:21 And the twelve gates were twelve pearls, each of the gates made of a single pearl, and the street of the city was pure gold, like transparent glass.
Rev 21:22 And I saw no temple in the city, for its temple is the Lord God the Almighty and the Lamb.
Rev 21:23 And the city has no need of sun or moon to shine on it, for the glory of God gives it light, and its lamp is the Lamb.
Rev 21:24 By its light will the nations walk, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it,
Rev 21:25 and its gates will never be shut by day—and there will be no night there.
Rev 21:26 They will bring into it the glory and the honor of the nations.
Rev 21:27 But nothing unclean will ever enter it, nor anyone who does what is detestable or false, but only those who are written in the Lamb's book of life.
Rev 22:1 Then the angel showed me the river of the water of life, bright as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb
Rev 22:2 through the middle of the street of the city; also, on either side of the river, the tree of life with its twelve kinds of fruit, yielding its fruit each month. The leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
Rev 22:3 No longer will there be anything accursed, but the throne of God and of the Lamb will be in it, and his servants will worship him.
Rev 22:4 They will see his face, and his name will be on their foreheads.
Rev 22:5 And night will be no more. They will need no light of lamp or sun, for the Lord God will be their light, and they will reign forever and ever.
End of Explanation
This explanation is simply a more detailed version of the NHNE that we see in 21:1-8. It includes all sorts of interesting imagery found in places like Ezekiel 47. What’s interesting to me is that there are still bad guys running around. And, these bad guys are invited to enter the city any time. The gates will always be open to them. If you match this imagery up with places like Isaiah 66 and Zechariah 13-14 you see the simple assumption that human history will continue on earth with people who accept God and people who reject God. Ezekiel 47 and Daniel 2 tell us that the kingdom will eventually become preeminent. But, there will always be salt marshes because free will continues. There is no implication here that the universe has been melted and rebuilt so that there is no more death or sin or any kind. That promise is reserved for those in the New Jerusalem, the full members in my opinion being the church triumphant.
Rev 22:6 And he said to me, "These words are trustworthy and true. And the Lord, the God of the spirits of the prophets, has sent his angel to show his servants what must soon take place."
Rev 22:7 "And behold, I am coming soon. Blessed is the one who keeps the words of the prophecy of this book."
Here are a couple of cool time statements. I think Revelation was written in the winter of 62-63. But, if you think it was written in 96 you still have to deal with the fact that it was about to take place in that time.
Rev 22:8 I, John, am the one who heard and saw these things. And when I heard and saw them, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who showed them to me,
Rev 22:9 but he said to me, "You must not do that! I am a fellow servant with you and your brothers the prophets, and with those who keep the words of this book. Worship God."
Rev 22:10 And he said to me, "Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is near.
This is another cool time statement. It is a reversal of Daniel’s order to seal up his book.
Rev 22:11 Let the evildoer still do evil, and the filthy still be filthy, and the righteous still do right, and the holy still be holy."
And yet another time statement. In this one, there is not time to bother walking away from sin because it’s too late. How often is that part of the teaching of eschatology? Has anyone here ever taught it? Why not?
Rev 22:12 "Behold, I am coming soon, bringing my recompense with me, to repay each one for what he has done.
And yet another time statement…
Rev 22:13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end."
Rev 22:14 Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life and that they may enter the city by the gates.
Rev 22:15 Outside are the dogs and sorcerers and the sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.
The imagery here is of the church. Those outside cannot enter. But why is there anyone outside at all? I thought they were all supposed to be melted!
Rev 22:16 "I, Jesus, have sent my angel to testify to you about these things for the churches. I am the root and the descendant of David, the bright morning star."
Rev 22:17 The Spirit and the Bride say, "Come." And let the one who hears say, "Come." And let the one who is thirsty come; let the one who desires take the water of life without price.
Rev 22:18 I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book,
Rev 22:19 and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.
Rev 22:20 He who testifies to these things says, "Surely I am coming soon." Amen. Come, Lord Jesus!
And the final time statement. Why is it so hard to see these?
Rev 22:21 The grace of the Lord Jesus be with all. Amen.
In conclusion, starting in Rev. 20 to 21:8 you have a final vision that describes the start of the NHNE. The next, per John’s habit, there is an explanation of the imagery of that vision. There are good guys and bad guys. The good guys have no more tears, etc. The bad guys are perpetually invited in. Unless you want to entertain restorationist Universalism this has to represent people on earth being invited to salvation before they die. The book wraps up with a crescendo of time statements that one would think would be obvious enough.
Rev 21:22 And I saw no temple in the city, for its temple is the Lord God the Almighty and the Lamb.
Rev 21:23 And the city has no need of sun or moon to shine on it, for the glory of God gives it light, and its lamp is the Lamb.
Rev 21:24 By its light will the nations walk, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it,
Rev 21:25 and its gates will never be shut by day—and there will be no night there.
Rev 21:26 They will bring into it the glory and the honor of the nations.
Rev 21:27 But nothing unclean will ever enter it, nor anyone who does what is detestable or false, but only those who are written in the Lamb's book of life.
Rev 22:1 Then the angel showed me the river of the water of life, bright as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb
Rev 22:2 through the middle of the street of the city; also, on either side of the river, the tree of life with its twelve kinds of fruit, yielding its fruit each month. The leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
Rev 22:3 No longer will there be anything accursed, but the throne of God and of the Lamb will be in it, and his servants will worship him.
Rev 22:4 They will see his face, and his name will be on their foreheads.
Rev 22:5 And night will be no more. They will need no light of lamp or sun, for the Lord God will be their light, and they will reign forever and ever.
End of Explanation
This explanation is simply a more detailed version of the NHNE that we see in 21:1-8. It includes all sorts of interesting imagery found in places like Ezekiel 47. What’s interesting to me is that there are still bad guys running around. And, these bad guys are invited to enter the city any time. The gates will always be open to them. If you match this imagery up with places like Isaiah 66 and Zechariah 13-14 you see the simple assumption that human history will continue on earth with people who accept God and people who reject God. Ezekiel 47 and Daniel 2 tell us that the kingdom will eventually become preeminent. But, there will always be salt marshes because free will continues. There is no implication here that the universe has been melted and rebuilt so that there is no more death or sin or any kind. That promise is reserved for those in the New Jerusalem, the full members in my opinion being the church triumphant.
Rev 22:6 And he said to me, "These words are trustworthy and true. And the Lord, the God of the spirits of the prophets, has sent his angel to show his servants what must soon take place."
Rev 22:7 "And behold, I am coming soon. Blessed is the one who keeps the words of the prophecy of this book."
Here are a couple of cool time statements. I think Revelation was written in the winter of 62-63. But, if you think it was written in 96 you still have to deal with the fact that it was about to take place in that time.
Rev 22:8 I, John, am the one who heard and saw these things. And when I heard and saw them, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who showed them to me,
Rev 22:9 but he said to me, "You must not do that! I am a fellow servant with you and your brothers the prophets, and with those who keep the words of this book. Worship God."
Rev 22:10 And he said to me, "Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is near.
This is another cool time statement. It is a reversal of Daniel’s order to seal up his book.
Rev 22:11 Let the evildoer still do evil, and the filthy still be filthy, and the righteous still do right, and the holy still be holy."
And yet another time statement. In this one, there is not time to bother walking away from sin because it’s too late. How often is that part of the teaching of eschatology? Has anyone here ever taught it? Why not?
Rev 22:12 "Behold, I am coming soon, bringing my recompense with me, to repay each one for what he has done.
And yet another time statement…
Rev 22:13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end."
Rev 22:14 Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life and that they may enter the city by the gates.
Rev 22:15 Outside are the dogs and sorcerers and the sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.
The imagery here is of the church. Those outside cannot enter. But why is there anyone outside at all? I thought they were all supposed to be melted!
Rev 22:16 "I, Jesus, have sent my angel to testify to you about these things for the churches. I am the root and the descendant of David, the bright morning star."
Rev 22:17 The Spirit and the Bride say, "Come." And let the one who hears say, "Come." And let the one who is thirsty come; let the one who desires take the water of life without price.
Rev 22:18 I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book,
Rev 22:19 and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.
Rev 22:20 He who testifies to these things says, "Surely I am coming soon." Amen. Come, Lord Jesus!
And the final time statement. Why is it so hard to see these?
Rev 22:21 The grace of the Lord Jesus be with all. Amen.
In conclusion, starting in Rev. 20 to 21:8 you have a final vision that describes the start of the NHNE. The next, per John’s habit, there is an explanation of the imagery of that vision. There are good guys and bad guys. The good guys have no more tears, etc. The bad guys are perpetually invited in. Unless you want to entertain restorationist Universalism this has to represent people on earth being invited to salvation before they die. The book wraps up with a crescendo of time statements that one would think would be obvious enough.
Re: Input greatly desired
Hi Doug and Douglas,
Where are you getting these "variants" of Revelation which do not contain Rev 10:5?
I have checked over 50 translations, and have found NONE which omit it (although several place parentheses around the verse).
I have found only one translation (Murdoch, 1851) which omits the first part of the verse, retaining only "This is the first resurrection".
Why do you suppose all modern translations include the verse, most of them without placing parentheses around it?
I have a book which contains the transcripts of ALL Greek New Testament manuscripts (prior to 300 A.D.).
Papyri 18,24,47,98, and 115 contain only a few passages here and there from Revelation. There are none which contain any part of Revelation after chapter 17 verse 2. The other 57 papyri contain NO part of Revelation.
Among the best known codices containing the New Testament, Sinaiticus (א), Alexandrinus (A) and Vaticanus (B), while it is true that Sinaiticus omits Rev 20:5, Alexandrinus and Vaticanus do not contain any part of Revelation at all.
So it appears that any manuscripts of Revelation 20 which do or do not contain verse 5, have appeared relatively late on the scene. I can see no reason why anyone without theological bias would prefer one above the other.
Where are you getting these "variants" of Revelation which do not contain Rev 10:5?
I have checked over 50 translations, and have found NONE which omit it (although several place parentheses around the verse).
I have found only one translation (Murdoch, 1851) which omits the first part of the verse, retaining only "This is the first resurrection".
Why do you suppose all modern translations include the verse, most of them without placing parentheses around it?
I have a book which contains the transcripts of ALL Greek New Testament manuscripts (prior to 300 A.D.).
Papyri 18,24,47,98, and 115 contain only a few passages here and there from Revelation. There are none which contain any part of Revelation after chapter 17 verse 2. The other 57 papyri contain NO part of Revelation.
Among the best known codices containing the New Testament, Sinaiticus (א), Alexandrinus (A) and Vaticanus (B), while it is true that Sinaiticus omits Rev 20:5, Alexandrinus and Vaticanus do not contain any part of Revelation at all.
So it appears that any manuscripts of Revelation 20 which do or do not contain verse 5, have appeared relatively late on the scene. I can see no reason why anyone without theological bias would prefer one above the other.
Paidion
Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.
Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.
Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.
Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.
Re: Input greatly desired
You could have saved yourself a lot of hassle by just reading the posts here. We already told you which manuscripts had it. The Murdock version is based on the Aramaic New Testament, the age of which is heavily disputed. I've noticed that you've asked basically the same question twice on this topic. Didn't you read this?Paidion wrote:Hi Doug and Douglas,
Where are you getting these "variants" of Revelation which do not contain Rev 10:5?
I have checked over 50 translations, and have found NONE which omit it (although several place parentheses around the verse).
I have found only one translation (Murdoch, 1851) which omits the first part of the verse, retaining only "This is the first resurrection".
Why do you suppose all modern translations include the verse, most of them without placing parentheses around it?
I have a book which contains the transcripts of ALL Greek New Testament manuscripts (prior to 300 A.D.).
Papyri 18,24,47,98, and 115 contain only a few passages here and there from Revelation. There are none which contain any part of Revelation after chapter 17 verse 2. The other 57 papyri contain NO part of Revelation.
Among the best known codices containing the New Testament, Sinaiticus (א), Alexandrinus (A) and Vaticanus (B), while it is true that Sinaiticus omits Rev 20:5, Alexandrinus and Vaticanus do not contain any part of Revelation at all.
So it appears that any manuscripts of Revelation 20 which do or do not contain verse 5, have appeared relatively late on the scene. I can see no reason why anyone without theological bias would prefer one above the other.
"(Interestingly, it is not included in the following manuscripts (Aleph, Ma Pt., g, i1/3, and all copies of the Aramaic Peshitta New Testament)"
Doug
Re: Input greatly desired
Well, I thought perhaps you had some relatively early manuscripts besides "Aleph" (א), that is, Sinaiticus, which I have already mentioned in my reply.Doug wrote:You could have saved yourself a lot of hassle by just reading the posts here. We already told you which manuscripts had it. The Murdock version is based on the Aramaic New Testament, the age of which is heavily disputed. I've noticed that you've asked basically the same question twice on this topic. Didn't you read this?
"(Interestingly, it is not included in the following manuscripts (Aleph, Ma Pt., g, i1/3, and all copies of the Aramaic Peshitta New Testament)"
I have no idea what "Ma" is, or "Pt". I do know that "M" is a 9th-century uncial, but it contains only the gospels, so you can't be referring to that. "P" is a 6th-century uncial which contains Revelation. However, I suspect you refer to some other little-known manuscripts. Please specify. And what is "g" and "i1/3"? This is not the conventional way of designating manuscripts. All uncials are mostly designated by capital Roman characters, and some by capital Greek characters. Besides this there are a significant number of fresh collations, numbered from "046" to "0234", as well as minuscules numbered from 2 to 2768 with many numbers not yet associated with a manuscript.
As for the Aramaic Peshitta New Testament, it is not even in the Greek Language. So Murdoch is a translation of a translation. The New Testament was written in Greek (with the possible exception of Matthew), so why trust an Aramaic translation?
By the way, Syriac and Peshitta texts are normally designated by "syr" superscripted by from one to three Roman characters.
Paidion
Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.
Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.
Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.
Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.