Question for Preterists

[TheEditor]

Hi Duncan,

You wrote:

The problem of what happens to those who never heard of the gospel is a conundrum for all views of eschatology and indeed Christianity.

Agreed.

to say that the second coming could not have happened yet because everyone has not heard the gospel is not very well thought out.

I don't believe I said this. What I am implying is that if there is no future resurrection of the righteous and unrighteous; if there is no future seperation of wheat and weeds, sheep and goats, etc. then all one has now is this opportunity and no future one. Personally I tilt toward future probation, but that's another subject. When I was a JW it troubled me greatly that essentially we believed every human's chances at life rested in our giving a witness, no matter how poor or short-shrift it was. Now that I am no longer of that mindset, having all set in the past with no real opportunity for the 10 year old girl sold into sex slavery, merely because she didn't hear the name "Jesus", or, worse yet, heard the name Jesus, but didn't have the lights to inquire more, makes it seem to my mind that God got a poor return on His investment.

Regards, Brenden.

[Duncan]

Hi Brenden,
Not sure what you mean by a future chance to believe in Jesus or probation (purgatory?). I praise the Lord you got out of JW's. That whole system creeps me out (although I do not know that much about it). Those in it seem really enslaved, not a whole lot of joy. What got you into it? what got you out? (besides the Lord of course)

[TheEditor]

Hi Duncan,

It's really not as creepy as all that. No special handshakes or anything. I was a thrid generation JW, full time evangelizer and what would be thought of as a deacon in most churches. The JW system is highly controling, although most of the friends there are shielded by their apathy by and large. The longer it is around, the more it is like any other denomination. The meetings are very formal, with a sermon and audience participation during study lessons. All meetings have opening prayer and song, as well as the same at the end. The distinctives are of course the teachings, and the use of disfellowshipping which I believe goes way beyond the practice as outlined in the Scriptures. If you or any others have any specific questions about it, I would be happy to engage them if we started a thread for it.

As for probation; not necessarily purgatory. I tend to think that there are hints at something beyond what many Christians have accepted as the only choices; heaven or hell. Just as the Jews had a cursory grasp of what Messiah was and how Israel (as they understood it) factored in to the equasion, so too I think that most Christians have some future expectations doped out, whether they be more Futurist in their outlook (rapture, tribulation, etc) or Preterist (here and now, dead and believer=heaven, non believer=hell or anihilation).

Just as the Jews had more opened to them after Jesus came, so too I think that the future will hold another unfolding to the servants of God just what the particulars are, that may already be hinted at in the Scriptures.

Regards, Brenden.

[Mellontes]

...The JW system is highly controling, although most of the friends there are shielded by their apathy by and large. The longer it is around, the more it is like any other denomination. The meetings are very formal, with a sermon and audience participation during study lessons. All meetings have opening prayer and song, as well as the same at the end. The distinctives are of course the teachings, and the use of disfellowshipping which I believe goes way beyond the practice as outlined in the Scriptures...

That sounds VERY similar to the independent fundamental Baptist church I once attended. One guy got excommunicated because he questioned the pastor regarding the finances. I think the JWs might have been taught by that particular sect of Baptists...

[robbyyoung]

Concerning the OP,
If the unsaved means that they have rejected Christ and His message then when they die the individual is immediately judged based upon his works and the law. The law in this case would not be the Mosaic Law. That judgment would then render that person as lost in his sins since all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. Then that person would be cast into the lake of fire and experience the second death. That second death in my opinion is the act of being put out of existence.

Hi Allyn,

No, my question was actually more towards "what happens to all the unsaved or those who have not heard the Gospel proclaimed, since 70 AD.?" I guess my use of the word "or" was more of a qualifier. In other words those ignorant of the Gospel.

Regards, Brenden.

Hi Brenden,

So did Duncan answer your question?

"The problem of what happens to those who never heard of the gospel is a conundrum for all views of eschatology and indeed Christianity. Now personally I believe the judgment began at AD 70. But to say that the second coming could not have happened yet because everyone has not heard the gospel is not very well thought out. Millions and millions have already died without hearing the gospel. Whether Jesus returned at AD 70 or willl return in the future does not change that fact. Again the problem is still there no matter when one says the second coming happened or will happen."

Thanks.

[TheEditor]

Hi Robby,

Wow, you must have been bored! Talk about resurrecting a thread!

But as to your question; maybe. At the time I wrote that (4 years ago) I was in active conversation with a Preterist that was tilting toward Calvinism and he was wedding the Preterist view of the Final Judgment to his Calvinist leanings. So, it was more of a curiosity thing I suppose. Feel free to toss in your two cents if it is different.

Regards, Brenden.

[Homer]

But to say that the second coming could not have happened yet because everyone has not heard the gospel is not very well thought out. Millions and millions have already died without hearing the gospel. Whether Jesus returned at AD 70 or willl return in the future does not change that fact. Again the problem is still there no matter when one says the second coming happened or will happen."

Where do the scriptures say the Gospel must be preached to every individual? The idea seemingly comes from our western focus on the individual, and we assume "nations" must mean every individual in every nation.

[TheEditor]

Hi Homer,

Where do the scriptures say the Gospel must be preached to every individual? The idea seemingly comes from our western focus on the individual

It doesn't. However,

I am he who searches the kidneys and hearts, and I will give to YOU individually according to YOUR deeds.
(Revelation 2:23)
And the sea gave up those dead in it, and death and Ha′des gave up those dead in them, and they were judged individually according to their deeds.
(Revelation 20:13)

Seems if the accountability is individual, then the opportunity must be as well.

Regards, Brenden.

[robbyyoung]

Hi Robby,

Wow, you must have been bored! Talk about resurrecting a thread!

But as to your question; maybe. At the time I wrote that (4 years ago) I was in active conversation with a Preterist that was tilting toward Calvinism and he was wedding the Preterist view of the Final Judgment to his Calvinist leanings. So, it was more of a curiosity thing I suppose. Feel free to toss in your two cents if it is different.

Regards, Brenden.

LOL! Yes, I sometimes go through the archives in order to catch up on the multitudes of conversations that has taken place over the years. Nevertheless, for the many who have died and will die before hearing any verbal or written account of The Gospel, their judgment seems to be based on Romans 1:17-32. Verse 19 suggest that God has done His part, afterwards, Man either chooses the path of righteousness or unrighteousness. From the context, unrighteous living denotes the following:

1. Unjust, lacking faith towards an inherent knowledge of God (vs.17)
2. Unthankful towards God in their vain imaginations (vs.21)
3. Their foolish (vs.22)
4. Lusts of their own hearts (vs.24)
5. Changed the truth of God into a lie (vs.25)
6. Worships and serves the creature instead of The Creator (vs.25)
7. They do not like to retain God in their knowledge (vs.28)
8. Their filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful (vs.29-31)
9. They have pleasure in commiting all the above, with the knowledge of those who commit such acts are worthy of death (vs.32)
10. God's Wrath is upon all people who hold the truth in unrighteousness [this would be the list from 1 through 9], (vs.18)

Everyone is without excuse and decides whether to live a life of righteousness through faith or not. God will judge the heart of every man.

But what about those who are incapable of believing? This would include babies (of all sorts), mentally ill, retardation, etc... Well, God gives us an answer to this as well in 1 Tim 4:10 "For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers."

Take note of the phrase "especially of believers", therefore, God can save even those who are incapable of believing. Isn't God extremely merciful and altogether loving?!

God Bless!

[Homer]

Hi Brenden

I am he who searches the kidneys and hearts, and I will give to YOU individually according to YOUR deeds.
(Revelation 2:23)
And the sea gave up those dead in it, and death and Ha′des gave up those dead in them, and they were judged individually according to their deeds.
(Revelation 20:13)

Seems if the accountability is individual, then the opportunity must be as well.

Not agreeing with your conclusion. A great many have died without hearing the gospel and we can not say, as Robby has pointed out, that they are unaccountable (per Romans). They all have the opportunity, given their God provided conscience, to do good deeds.

Enjoy your posts! Have a blessed Thanksgiving!