Countdown to the Kingdom

[Allyn]

As Promised:

Allyn wrote:The resurrection of the dead, by necessity, must take place at the time the New Covenant has come in and when all enemies are made His footstool.

look2jesus wrote: I fail to see how you can assert this based on the 1 Cor. 15 text. Where does Paul tie the coming in of the New Covenant with the resurrection, exactly?

The Apostle ties the New Covenant coming in with the resurrection by establishing that the last enemy - death - is defeated
25 For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. 26 The last enemy that will be destroyed is death.
Special note: 1 Corinthians 15 is the resurrection of the dead chapter. I will place this all together at the end of this post.

Allyn wrote:The Hebrew writer (Heb 10) compares this time as the time of the New Covenant...(emphasis mine)

look2jesus wrote: What is meant by “this time”?

In Hebrews 10 the writer starts out by showing how animal sacrifices are insufficient (verses 1-4). He then develops how Christ's death fulfills God's will (verses 5-10). And then in verses 11-18 we see how Christ's death perfects the sanctified. It is in this section where the teaching ties itself in with the teaching on the resurrection. The Hebrew writer does it this way:
12 But this Man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God, 13 from that time waiting till His enemies are made His footstool.
We all understand that the last and perfect sacrifice that was performed was at the cross by Jesus Christ. When this was accomplished Jesus soon after ascended back to heaven and took His rightful place at the right hand of God and waited til His enemies are made His footstool. The Hebrews writer claims that this is verified through the Holy Spirit by taking us back to a seemingly unrelated prophecy in Jer. 31. The writer then quotes this prophecy which is known to all Christians as the prophecy of the coming New Covenant promised to Israel.
Now the question is how can this all be related to what I have been trying to show? Here's how.
In Hebrews 10 we see that Christ cannot return until all His enemies are made His footstool. We now know that this can only happen at the time of the fully established New Covenant which cannot happen until that which was becoming obsolete actually became obsolete at the destruction of the temple and the Old Covenant system. To reinforce this the writer produces the prophecy found in Jer 31 which tells of the coming New Covenant.
Now we go to 1 Cor. 15 where we find that the mode and type of resurrection of the dead that the church of Corinth was having dificulty in understanding. The Apostle directs them to the teaching that the resurrection happens at the end when Jesus delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. Paul shows that the last enemy, death, is defeated at that time. Back to Hebrews 10 the writer clearly makes it known to us that at some time all enemies would be made the footstool of Jesus. If all means all then we must understand that the last of all the enemies is death - which was defeated at the resurrection of the dead according to 1 Cor. 15.

Allyn wrote:So we see that by showing the time of the New Covenant the writer is indicating that all enemies are made His footstool.

look2jesus wrote: Where, exactly, in Hebrews 10 does the writer indicate this?

So here is what we have thus far.
1. Jesus will make all enemies His footstool.
2. He accomplishes this at the time of the New Covenant according to the Hebrews writer who referenced to Jer. 31 as related to this event of the enemies made His footstool.
3. Paul, in 1 Cor. 15 says that it is at the resurrection of the dead that the last enemy, death is put under the feet of Jesus.
4. All Christianity knows that the Old Covenant system was finally put out of existence at the destruction of the temple and religous system by AD 70 and that the New Covenant was then fully in at that time.
5. The Apostle Paul also shows in 1 Cor. 15:24 that this time when death is defeated (the resurrection of the dead) is the same time when Jesus delivers the kingdom to God the Father.
So by these things we see that the New Covenant came in at the end of the Old Covenant system at the destruction of the Temple. The New Covenant system is at the time when all enemies are made His footstool. The last enemy Death being defeated at the time of the resurrection of the dead places those 2 events at the same timing as the New Covenant coming in according to Hebrews 10. It is also shown by Paul the Apostle that this same time is when the Kingdom is deliverd back to the Father. Thus we have the thesis of my whole original post that all the events leading up to the Kingdom of God having fully come in were completely fulfilled - including the second coming of Christ - by AD 70.
Working backwards we have:
1. the Kingdom of God is handed back over to the Father by Jesus ( 1 Cor.15:24 )
2. All enemies are defeated including death.(1 Cor. 15:26 )
3. Jesus arrives for His second coming. ( Mattew 24:30 )
4. The resurrection of the dead occurs. ( Daniel 12:13 )
5. The New Covenant is fully arrived. ( Matthew 24:2 )
6. The Old Covenant system is completely gone. ( Hebrews 8:13; Matthew 24:2 )
7. The Destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple is finished by AD 70 (Matthew 24; Mark 13; Luke 21 and Historic evidence)
8. The Abomination of Desolation takes place. ( Luke 21:20 )
9. Jerusalem is surrounded by armies which is the sign that the Abomination of Desolation is near (Luke 21:20 )

[look2jesus]

Hey Allyn,

I've got a few more questions now that you've expounded a little more.

1. It seems that you are making the argument that all Christ's enemies will be made a footstool for His feet at the point in time when the New Covenant is fully inaugurated, i.e., the time when the Old Covenant was fully abolished in 70AD. Is that correct?

2. You've stressed several times that the resurrection in Daniel 12 will include Jews only. I assume that you believe the resurrection that Jesus spoke of in John 5:28-29 is the same event. Why did Jesus say that an hour is coming when all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth...? Why is it important to understand that the resurrection included only Israel?

3. I believe you stated that the resurrection in Daniel 12:2, is the fulfillment of the deliverance of the people prophesied in Daniel 12:1. Do you see that as a necessary interpretation based on the context, or might the deliverance spoken of been fulfilled in some other manner, making each of the two (the deliverance and the resurrection) separate events ?

The reason for the first question is because I don't see where the writer of Hebrews makes that exact point. He tells us that the New Covenant had already been established at the time of his writing the letter, and he tells us that the Old Covenant will soon vanish away, but I don't see where he elaborates on any changes to the New Covenant that will take place upon the actual doing away of the Old Covenant or, for that matter, where he states that Jesus' enemies will be finally made a footstool for His feet at the point in time when the Old Covenant is abolished. I hope I made my question clear.

The other questions are simply for clarification. Thanks,

l2j

[Allyn]

Hey Allyn,

Hello again

I've got a few more questions now that you've expounded a little more.

Shoot

1. It seems that you are making the argument that all Christ's enemies will be made a footstool for His feet at the point in time when the New Covenant is fully inaugurated, i.e., the time when the Old Covenant was fully abolished in 70AD. Is that correct?

Yes, that is true

2. You've stressed several times that the resurrection in Daniel 12 will include Jews only. I assume that you believe the resurrection that Jesus spoke of in John 5:28-29 is the same event. Why did Jesus say that an hour is coming when all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth...? Why is it important to understand that the resurrection included only Israel?

In the four Gospels we know that Jesus came only to the Jews. John is no exception to this. Jesus was teaching the Jews that the hour they had been waiting for had come upon them:
25 Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live. 26 For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself, 27 and has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man. 28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. 30 I can of Myself do nothing. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is righteous, because I do not seek My own will but the will of the Father who sent Me.

Jesus was sent by the Father to the Jews.
In Daniel 12:1 The angel first tells Daniel what was going to be for his people:
And at that time your people shall be delivered,
Every one who is found written in the book.

3. I believe you stated that the resurrection in Daniel 12:2, is the fulfillment of the deliverance of the people prophesied in Daniel 12:1. Do you see that as a necessary interpretation based on the context, or might the deliverance spoken of been fulfilled in some other manner, making each of the two (the deliverance and the resurrection) separate events ?

I don't see it as being separate. The angel said "and many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake"

In total all of Daniels people will awake but the angel is telling Daniel that out of all the dead who ever lived by the time of the fulfillment only many of those who sleep in the dust shall awake. Then the angel divides those many into two groups more which are comprised of only Israel. Those two groups of Israel are the some who will be raised to eternal life because of their righteous faith and and the some who will be raised to condemnation. The promise to Israel of the resurrection is fullfilled in both cases whether to life or condemnation.
Lets remember that no other people on earth have received a promise of resurrection, only Israel. Its as simple as this: if you were not a part of Israel or considered righteous in faith by God, then your fate at your death prior to the cross was destruction of body soul and spirit. When the war began in Genesis 3:15 it was a promise of condemnation for the disobedient. As far as the record shows only three other people before Abraham and Sarah were considered righteous in faith before God (See Hebrews 11)

The reason for the first question is because I don't see where the writer of Hebrews makes that exact point. He tells us that the New Covenant had already been established at the time of his writing the letter, and he tells us that the Old Covenant will soon vanish away, but I don't see where he elaborates on any changes to the New Covenant that will take place upon the actual doing away of the Old Covenant or, for that matter, where he states that Jesus' enemies will be finally made a footstool for His feet at the point in time when the Old Covenant is abolished. I hope I made my question clear.

The other questions are simply for clarification. Thanks,

Well I'm not sure what you mean by "changes" to the new covenant. But the writer uses Jeremiah 31 as evidence that Jesus will make His enemies His footstool at the time of the New Covenant at the end of the age. I think this is missed by most people because it seems so incidental that the quote from Jer. 31 is given. When researched I found that the footstool symbol was also used by Paul at the time of the resurrection of the dead. That alone does not establish the timing of the resurrection but when coupled with the Scripture from Hebrews that positions his footstool symbol as at the time of the New Covenant then its just a matter of logical deduction that where the New Covenant is, there too the resurrection of the dead.

Let me know if this produces more questions or if I have not responded to the question asked.

[Mellontes]

A possibility that may be lacking in these conversations is the connotation of footstool. It seems that the definition that we 21st century individuals assign to that word is derogatory. Perhaps it would be a good idea for a study to be done on that one word and in order to understand better the connotation that the Bible gives "footstool." It may be surprising to most...

1 Chronicles 28:2 - Then David the king stood up upon his feet, and said, Hear me, my brethren, and my people: As for me, I had in mine heart to build an house of rest for the ark of the covenant of the LORD, and for the footstool of our God, and had made ready for the building:

Psalms 99:5 - Exalt ye the LORD our God, and worship at his footstool; for he is holy.

Psalms 132:7 - We will go into his tabernacles: we will worship at his footstool.

Isaiah 66:1 - Thus saith the LORD, The heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool: where is the house that ye build unto me? and where is the place of my rest?

Lamentations 2:1 - How hath the Lord covered the daughter of Zion with a cloud in his anger, and cast down from heaven unto the earth the beauty of Israel, and remembered not his footstool in the day of his anger!

...and a few more...

Now, if someone responds with something like "You mean to say that we are to worship our enemies," I will know that not much of a study has been done. Understanding WHY Psalm 110:1 is quoted several places in the NT is another worthy adventure.

[look2jesus]

Hello Allyn,
I wanted to get back to you regarding my questions about the New Covenant and it's relationship to the resurrection.

[T]he writer uses Jeremiah 31 as evidence that Jesus will make His enemies His footstool at the time of the New Covenant at the end of the age. I think this is missed by most people because it seems so incidental that the quote from Jer. 31 is given. When researched I found that the footstool symbol was also used by Paul at the time of the resurrection of the dead. That alone does not establish the timing of the resurrection but when coupled with the Scripture from Hebrews that positions his footstool symbol as at the time of the New Covenant then its just a matter of logical deduction that where the New Covenant is, there too the resurrection of the dead.

I find that the writer of Hebrews establishes the fact that the New Covenant has been fully inaugurated (Hebrews 8,9 and 10) at the time of the writing of the letter (going back to Jesus' death and resurrection, imo). Also, we learn that the Old Covenant is about to disappear, obviously alluding to the destruction of Jerusalem. I don't see where it is stated that it (the New Covenant) awaits the actual end of the Old Covenant before it takes force or is fully implemented. I also find that the writer states that Jesus sat down at the right hand of God, immediately after His resurrection and ascension, waiting from that time until His enemies should be made a footstool for His feet. I agree with you that the time associated with His enemies becoming a footstool for His feet correlates precisely with Paul's description in 1 Corinthians 15 where he tells us that Christ will reign until He has put all enemies under His feet, including death. What I fail to see, and what you still haven't answered is where in Hebrews, or anywhere else, does it tell us that the New Covenant awaits the final abolishing of the Old Covenant before being inaugurated, and/or, for that matter, where we are told, specifically, that Jesus' enemies become His footstool either 1)at the inauguration of the New Covenant as opposed to anytime during it's duration or 2)upon the final vanishing away of the Old Covenant? Thanks. Awaiting you response.

l2j

[Allyn]

Hey look,

Would you agree with me that the resurrection of the dead would be a time certain when death would be defeated no matter when that took place?

The Old Testament prophets who presented God’s revelation concerning the New Covenant were Israelite prophets. It was their responsibility to declare God’s message specifically to the people of Israel. They described how the nation of Israel would be related to the New Covenant, not how others possibly would be related to it.

One of the major Old Testament passages in which God presented promises of the New Covenant (Ezekiel 36:21-38), He clearly indicated that He would fulfill those promises with the same people who profaned His holy name among the Gentiles. The context (Ezekiel 36:16-20) and language, “house of Israel” (vv. 22, 32, 37) of this passage signify that those people were the literal people of Israel. Dispensationalists believe that God has not yet completed His work of the New Covenant towards Israel but that is simply nonsense. The Temple is gone and the Old system with it. Up until that time Israel was still practicing the religious aspects of the Old Covenant. You and I can say that Jesus certainly did introduce it into the Church but the New Covenant having been promised to Israel therefore did not reach its pinnacle of completion until Israel was fully crushed under the weight of God's wrath.

[look2jesus]

Allyn,

Would you agree with me that the resurrection of the dead would be a time certain when death would be defeated no matter when that took place?

Yes, according to 1 Corinthians 15.

The Old Testament prophets who presented God’s revelation concerning the New Covenant were Israelite prophets. It was their responsibility to declare God’s message specifically to the people of Israel. They described how the nation of Israel would be related to the New Covenant, not how others possibly would be related to it.

But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering, and to the assembly of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel. ESV Heb 12:22-24

Are we beginning to commend ourselves again? Or do we need, as some do, letters of recommendation to you, or from you? You yourselves are our letter of recommendation, written on our hearts, to be known and read by all. And you show that you are a letter from Christ delivered by us, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts. Such is the confidence that we have through Christ toward God. Not that we are sufficient in ourselves to claim anything as coming from us, but our sufficiency is from God, who has made us competent to be ministers of a new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit. For the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life. ESV 2 Co 3:1-6

But the New Testament authors certainly shed more light on the subject than the prophets themselves understood.

You and I can say that Jesus certainly did introduce it into the Church but the New Covenant having been promised to Israel therefore did not reach its pinnacle of completion until Israel was fully crushed under the weight of God's wrath.

I'm assuming that, like the Dispensationalists, you distinguish between a program for the Church and a separate program for Israel concerning the establishment of the New Covenant. I don't find that in the Scripture.

For we are the temple of the living God; as God said,
“ I will make my dwelling among them and walk among them,
and I will be their God,
and they shall be my people.
Therefore go out from their midst,
and be separate from them, says the Lord,
and touch no unclean thing;
then I will welcome you,
and I will be a father to you,
and you shall be sons and daughters to me,
says the Lord Almighty.”
Since we have these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from every defilement of body and spirit, bringing holiness to completion in the fear of God. ESV 2 Co 6:16-7:1

Not to stress the point too much, Allyn, but is this your answer to my question posed in my previous post? ...still waiting for that answer, brother. Thanks.

l2j

[look2jesus]

Allyn,
I think the software, and me trying to edit my post screwed up your last quote in the last post of mine. Sorry about that. I wish someone would fix that. It can be quite irritating! I'm not going to bother to try and edit it, though. Thanks.

l2j

(I changed my mind and went ahead and fixed it.)

[Allyn]

Allyn,
I think the software, and me trying to edit my post screwed up your last quote in the last post of mine. Sorry about that. I wish someone would fix that. It can be quite irritating! I'm not going to bother to try and edit it, though. Thanks.

l2j

(I changed my mind and went ahead and fixed it.)

OK, I saw only the fix.

I am working on a reply today.

[Allyn]

Not to stress the point too much, Allyn, but is this your answer to my question posed in my previous post? ...still waiting for that answer, brother. Thanks.

l2j

I don't want you to think that I am avoiding your question. I am working up to the answer to you as we go along, I am establishing some common ground.

In your statements to me in that post you first formatted wrong you quoted to me Hebrews 12:22 and in that I understand your point. What I am trying to establish in this thread is that it was for Israel that the Messiah came. Jesus came to them to preach the good news and to them only did He say that it was to their house salvation had come. They had been looking for a physical kingdom but the true kingdom was not of this world. The better land that Abraham longed for had come to their time in the 1st century AD. Hebrews was a letter written to the Jews who were facing confusion and contradictions from those of their brethren who were determined to cling to the old system.

Your question to me that has not been answered to your satisfaction was this:

What I fail to see, and what you still haven't answered is where in Hebrews, or anywhere else, does it tell us that the New Covenant awaits the final abolishing of the Old Covenant before being inaugurated, and/or, for that matter, where we are told, specifically, that Jesus' enemies become His footstool either 1)at the inauguration of the New Covenant as opposed to anytime during it's duration or 2)upon the final vanishing away of the Old Covenant?

The answer to your question is in Hebrews 9:28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.

I believe you already understand this but the better part of Hebrews is showing how Jesus became the substance of the type represented in the office of the High Priest of Israel and his duties. The one verse, Hebrews 9:28, sums it all up in how Jesus satisfied not only the requirements of the High Priest but also the one thing that only Jesus could do which brought an end to the year after year process of clensing and sanctification through the sacrifice of bulls and goats and one more thing and that being to bring salvation at His appearing a second time. I'll address this better, later, but first I want to bring out the fact that during this time in the 1st century believers were waiting for the day of the Lord to come. Not only waiting but also remaining steadfast in hope that it was coming soon. In chapter 10 the writer continues with this teaching that all of these things which were crucial and vital parts of the law of Moses were satisfied in Christ but even so there was a Day when it would all be completed and completely in Jesus by saying :
10:25 not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as is the manner of some, but exhorting one another, and so much the more as you see the Day approaching..

What was that Day that was approaching? Peter says it is the Day of the Lord that comes as a thief in the night. The Hebrews writer says that it is the day when Jesus comes a second time but this time not for sin but for salvation. When Jesus came the first time it was to make atonement for the sins of His people but not until He came a second time was the salvation process complete. In otherwords if Jesus did not come back then we would actually still not realize our salvation. Death would still have its power over us, The book of Hebrews is calling on us to understand these very Jewish aspects of the Levitical Law of Moses. We can only do this by going back to the book of Leviticus chapter 16 and see just what the duties of the High Priest were as pertaining to the completed yearly work of the High Priest.

Since I really don't like long individual posts I want to allow for your comments, l2j. Is this beginning to make sense? if by now you have read Lev. 16 can you see how important it was for Jesus to complete the work of the High Priest in a short time rather than 2000 plus years?