666 ?

[Guest]

achsteven,

You must have me confused with someone else. I have never seen any evidence that I am your superior...in fact, I know the opposite to be true.

[Guest]

The question of whether Jerusalem is the subject matter of any part of the Book of Revelation must be decided upon its material contents, not upon the identification of the recipients. If the fall of Jerusalem would have a spiritual impact on Christians around the wworld (as it did), what objection can be presented to Christ talking about it to these or any other churches?


That Jerusalem is in view hardly seems controversial, since the temple is seen—and predicted to be delivered over to the Gentiles, as occurred in AD 70 (11:1-2), and the oft-mentioned "great city" (symbolically called "Babylon"—14:8/16:19/ 17:18/ 18:10, 18) is identified as being "where our Lord was crucified" (11:8), which histoically was Jerusalem. That city is also called "the Harlot," which is a term for Jerusalem (Isaiah 1:21/Jer.3:1, 6, 8/ Ezek.16:15, 35; etc.). That John wrote about Jerusalem seems indisputable.

Steve,
I find it odd that Jerusalem is called the “holy city” in Rev. 11:2 just before 11:8’s reference. At first this seemed a bit contradictory so I let it stand as I analyzed Rev. 11:8, the verse that is critical to the identification of Jerusalem as the or at least a “great city”. I did find an OT reference to Jerusalem being Sodom but not to Jerusalem being Egypt, which I believe is been used as a symbol of oppression and slavery. So that seemed to be a little odd as well.

Another slight detail is that Jesus was crucified outside of the city (John 19:20). Given the overtly symbolic nature of this passage that clearly says it is “symbolic” within a book full of symbols it would only be prudent to ask whether this reference to the Lord’s crucifixion is also symbolic or spiritual or related to apostasy as in Heb 6:6.

Given that Jerusalem is clearly called the “holy city” in 11:2 and that Jesus was not crucified in Jerusalem, but outside in the world and that it is possible to symbolically crucify the Lord through apostasy (Heb. 6:6), I think it would be acceptable to suggest that the reference to the “great city” could indeed be the “world” and it’s systems, which include Jerusalem.

As I’ve mentioned before, Jerusalem is not the only city referred to as a harlot in the OT. (Nineveh – Nahum 3:4-7, Tyre – Isaiah 23:15-16, Samaria – Ezekiel 23:1-5, Babylon – Isaiah 47:5, 10-12) - so the interpretation of the “great” harlot as being Jerusalem is seemingly disputable particularly in reference to this second item: “great” Euphrates.

“great” Euphrates occurs in Rev. 9:14 and 16:12. I think we all know that the relationship of the Euphrates to Babylon is inextricably and integrally related. The Euphrates was at the same time the source of their greatest strength next to their walls to withstand a siege and at the same time the source of their greatest weakness leading to their sudden demise at the hands of Cyrus.

As another “great”, it is part of the greater story of who the “great city” and “great Babylon” is. It is not an ignorable or inconsequential item. For the Euphrates was how ancient Babylon fell and it’s reference, particularly in Rev. 16:12 is directly related to Christ coming as a thief in the night. Cyrus is the person who dried up the river so that he from the East (Susa, Persia) could come in and storm the city at night (Daniel 5:30-31) and install a new king. Just as Rev. 16:12, alludes, Cyrus (meaning son of the east) came as a thief in the night and destroyed their city. So that we not miss the importance of Cyrus as a type of Christ, Isaiah 44:28-45:1 gives us this typology.

I’m always willing to be convinced the other way. And I’m curious if you know of a relationship that Jerusalem shared with an entity just as Babylon shared with the Euphrates? And secondly, whether we could describe the fall of Jerusalem in terms of Jesus coming as a thief in the night.

After your post, I reread Revelation doing my best to see it through the 70 AD perspective. I did come up with a number of related questions, but this one seemed to be more central.

[Guest]

Been busy for a while, guys. I even started teaching a screenwriting class during my extended absence!

Anyway, the term "that great city" or "mighty city" is an idiom which goes all the way back to Sumer in Mesopotamia. Its figurative meaning is "the capital city" - the city where a king rules from.

According to Sumerian (and also Egyptian) mythology, at the "place where creation occurred", the land rose out of the primordial waters of Nun. This place became known as NUN-KI, literally meaning "water-place" or "water-city". However, because this was the "place where creation had occurred", it was deemed the pre-eminent place upon which to found a city and a temple. So the term "NUN-KI" also meant "mighty place" or "that great city."

In ancient Sumer, the capital city would move from city to city as the paths of the Tigris and Euphrates changed. According to the mythology, the first capital city was in Eridu. From there it moved to Kish, etc. Wherever the capital city was, was called "NUN-KI", "that great city."

The bible is simply making use of this idiom, which was in common usage in biblical times, without explaining where it comes from.

Damon

[Guest]

to Steve G

I think many of us as respect you alot as achsteven does!

[Guest]

I have a stupid question (I know no question is stupid).

It dawned on me today the idea, rather, question if there might be some tie between

Genesis 3:15 ...he will crush your head and you will strike his heel.
and
Rev. 13:3 One of the heads of the beast seemed to have a fatal wound.

[Guest]

With the news being full of speculation and fear concerning Iran and Syria and the like, I am noticing a sort of panic amongst my dispensationalist friends. They wonder if we are about to see the beast and the false prophet and the mark and the 666. All of this makes me very frustrated because I do not hold to their nonsense and they won't accept what I share with them either.

My question goes out to Steve but until he answers I would enjoy hearing from any of you as well.

Steve, I have listened to the lecture on Rev. 13 and I appreciate the help you gave, but you seemed to not be sure enough of yourself which left some wiggle room for me. Have you refined your understanding of the beast and the mark any since the recording was made? I got the impression it was recorded in the 1980's sometime but that really doesn't matter.

[Guest]

The tapes were probably recorded in the 90's, but it wouldn't make much difference if they had been recorded today, because I don't have any new light on that chapter.

For a long time, I have believed that the first beast simply represents satanically-inspired governments that resist the kingdom of God, especially through the persecution of Christians.

I believe that Nero and Rome were the current expression of this "beast" concept at the time Revelation was written, which is why so many allusions to Nero can be found mixed in the description.

That there could be an ultimate expression of this concept in a future world dictator is not inconceivable to me, though I have not seen this development as predicted in any specific passage of scripture, and I do not consider it a necessary part of any biblical outlook on the future. Time will tell.

In any case, I certainly do not see in scripture any allusion to modern-day Iraq or Iran—nor Israel, for that matter.

[Guest]

Hi allyn, perhaps this is off topic, but your post reminded me of what I recently pondered. Memory loss must be an affliction of our dispensational brethren, and I do count them as brethren.

Maybe this is a topic to post in eschatology, but I recall:

1. 9/11 was going to set off the Great Tribulation.
2. Iraq was going to hit Israel with chemical weapons, and that was going to set off the Great Tribulation.
3. Y2K was going to set off the one world currency.
4. The coming economic collapse forecasted by Larry Burkett was going to set off the one world monetary system
5. The EU was going to set off the one world government, until they ballooned to 379 member states.
6. Saddam and his "hanging gardens" were a prelude to him being Nebuchadnezzar, and leading one of the two Babylons
7. The Soviet Union was the bad guy
8. Russia was the bad guy
9. Iraq was the bad guy
10. Iran is now the bad guy
11. Russia invading "unwalled villages" (Israel is building a wall)
12. Israel back in the land in 1948 was God's prophetic timeclock going off again (Israel is now giving away land)
13. My pastor telling us that China was currently (at that time) paving a road to Israel, so the 200 million man army could invade.
14. The Gulf War would set off Ezekiel 37-38
15. Credit cards, credit cards, credit cards!
16. Clinton, the U.N., and the Pope, oh my!

It never ever ends. And this during my short walk with Christ. No wonder people are leaving this system in droves.

[Guest]

I think you are right on topic, guest. It just goes on and on.