Steve, and interested viewers:
I'm familiar with orthodox futurist views on the Anti-Christ and the no.666.
What are your amillenial, partial preterist views, in brief if you please?
Thank You.
Bud
666 ?
Bud,
The number “666” is what is called a cryptogram. Since ancient languages, like Hebrew, Greek and Latin, made the letters of their alphabet do double-duty as numerals (we are all familiar with “Roman numerals,” which are really letters), it was common for ancient people to conceal messages in numerical equivalents. John tells us that “666” is the number of the name of the beast in Revelation 13:18.
The popular “futurist” approach to Revelation anticipates the rise of a world dictator, whom they identify with this beast. Hoping that his rise may be near, many busy themselves trying to demonstrate how the names of modern political figures can be shown to fit the number “666.” Benito Mussolini, Ferdinand of Spain, Henry Kissinger, Jimmy Carter and Ronald Reagan have been among the plethora of powerful modern men who have been identified as the beast by some prophecy student or another.
Those espousing the popular view, which is looking for the antichrist yet to come, are called “premillennialists.” As you apparently know, I am not a premillennialist, but an amillennialist. There are a great number of opinions among amillennialists as to the meaning of the cryptogram “666.”
Some amillennialists (like Luther, Calvin, Zwingli, Knox, etc.) took a “historicist” approach to Revelation, seeing the beast as the Roman Catholic papacy. They pointed out that the pope’s miter, once bore the Latin words for “The Vicar of Christ” (a term meaning “instead of Christ”). The Latin letters of this title, taken as numerals, added up to six-hundred, sixty-six.
Other amillennialists take the “idealist” approach to Revelation, and believe that the beast represents the world system or any political system, at any time, that is energized by Satan and persecutes the people of God. They consider the triple sixes to suggest “man” in triplicate (“6” is said to be “the number of man,” falling just short of the perfect “7”).
Many amillennialists nowadays take a “preterist” approach to Revelation. They take the beast to be either Rome, in general, or Emperor Nero in particular. Some of the church fathers believed that the numbers suggested the word “Lateinus,” meaning “Roman.” It is also pointed out by many preterists that the name Caesar Nero, translated into Hebrew as Kaiser Neron, would total six-hundred, sixty-six, taking the numeration of the Hebrew letters.
If you are unfamiliar with these different approaches to Revelation, you can get a thorough education by reading a single volume—which I happen to have written—called “Revelation: Four Views: A Parallel Commentary” (Thomas Nelson, 1997). I know that was a shameless plug, but you set it up!
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/de ... ct-details
The number “666” is what is called a cryptogram. Since ancient languages, like Hebrew, Greek and Latin, made the letters of their alphabet do double-duty as numerals (we are all familiar with “Roman numerals,” which are really letters), it was common for ancient people to conceal messages in numerical equivalents. John tells us that “666” is the number of the name of the beast in Revelation 13:18.
The popular “futurist” approach to Revelation anticipates the rise of a world dictator, whom they identify with this beast. Hoping that his rise may be near, many busy themselves trying to demonstrate how the names of modern political figures can be shown to fit the number “666.” Benito Mussolini, Ferdinand of Spain, Henry Kissinger, Jimmy Carter and Ronald Reagan have been among the plethora of powerful modern men who have been identified as the beast by some prophecy student or another.
Those espousing the popular view, which is looking for the antichrist yet to come, are called “premillennialists.” As you apparently know, I am not a premillennialist, but an amillennialist. There are a great number of opinions among amillennialists as to the meaning of the cryptogram “666.”
Some amillennialists (like Luther, Calvin, Zwingli, Knox, etc.) took a “historicist” approach to Revelation, seeing the beast as the Roman Catholic papacy. They pointed out that the pope’s miter, once bore the Latin words for “The Vicar of Christ” (a term meaning “instead of Christ”). The Latin letters of this title, taken as numerals, added up to six-hundred, sixty-six.
Other amillennialists take the “idealist” approach to Revelation, and believe that the beast represents the world system or any political system, at any time, that is energized by Satan and persecutes the people of God. They consider the triple sixes to suggest “man” in triplicate (“6” is said to be “the number of man,” falling just short of the perfect “7”).
Many amillennialists nowadays take a “preterist” approach to Revelation. They take the beast to be either Rome, in general, or Emperor Nero in particular. Some of the church fathers believed that the numbers suggested the word “Lateinus,” meaning “Roman.” It is also pointed out by many preterists that the name Caesar Nero, translated into Hebrew as Kaiser Neron, would total six-hundred, sixty-six, taking the numeration of the Hebrew letters.
If you are unfamiliar with these different approaches to Revelation, you can get a thorough education by reading a single volume—which I happen to have written—called “Revelation: Four Views: A Parallel Commentary” (Thomas Nelson, 1997). I know that was a shameless plug, but you set it up!
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/de ... ct-details
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
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In Jesus,
Steve
Steve
One reason that I didn't mention which opinion I hold is that I don't really believe my opinion about this really matters that much. But, for the record, my position is a combination of the idealist and the preterist. Like the idealist, I think the first beast represents satanically-inspired State power that opposes the kingdom of God, manifested in many States throughout history. Because, in John's day, that power was Rome, and (I think) Nero, I think the number 666 pointed that direction to the original readers.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
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In Jesus,
Steve
Steve
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_JohnBarbour
- Posts: 21
- Joined: Mon Apr 19, 2004 4:27 pm
- Location: McMinnville, OR
Dear Bud,
Another book you may consider is Dr. Kenneth Gentry's The Beast of Revelation. You can find this at www.americanvision.org Search under Gentry or go to the Eschatology category. By the way it is the number six hundred and sixty six not just three digits.
In Christ,
John Barbour
Another book you may consider is Dr. Kenneth Gentry's The Beast of Revelation. You can find this at www.americanvision.org Search under Gentry or go to the Eschatology category. By the way it is the number six hundred and sixty six not just three digits.
In Christ,
John Barbour
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
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John Barbour
Just wondering if anyone has heard of this before?
When the pope is crowned he is given the official title of Vicarius Filii Dei, which means Vicar of the Son of God.
LATIN
V=5 F=0 D=500 I=1 I=1 E=0 C=100 L=50 I=1 A=0 I=1 R=0 I=1 I=1 U=5
S=0 = 666
Latin, of course, is the official language of the Papacy, and therefore we would expect to find the Roman numerals adding up his number.
One of the most amazing facts is that you can do this in the Latin, in the Hebrew, or in the Greek. It will all add up to the same-666.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
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By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another. (John 13:35)
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_Priestly1
- Posts: 68
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2004 2:47 pm
- Location: McMinnville, Oregon USA
Pope is the Beast too?
I have heard this interpretation of the Latin from SDA and other Adventist sects. Some also believe that the IHS on Latin Crosses and Unleavened Bread Hosts to mean Isis, Horus and Set...the evil pagan trinity of Alexander Hislop's famed book "The Two Babylons." This too is garbage. IHS is JES as is JESUS in Greek. Just like XPS is short for XPICTOS..Christ. Like the Bible Code you can make latin mean anything if you delete the non numerical letters...you should try it on the latin vulgate.
This is all psuedoscholarship and as valid as Alexander Bishop's absurd comparisons to paganism of Roman Catholicism....Liberals do the same and declare Christianity itself as a Jewish sect sold out too near eastern mystery religion sacrificed and reborn earth saviors and virgin earth goddesses. Orthodox Jewish Rabbis use this same nutty comparative scholarship to prove Christianity is a Jewih sect gone Pagan Gentile.
Leave that stuff with David Hunt, Hal Lindsey and Jack Chick.
In Messiah,
+Ken Huffman
This is all psuedoscholarship and as valid as Alexander Bishop's absurd comparisons to paganism of Roman Catholicism....Liberals do the same and declare Christianity itself as a Jewish sect sold out too near eastern mystery religion sacrificed and reborn earth saviors and virgin earth goddesses. Orthodox Jewish Rabbis use this same nutty comparative scholarship to prove Christianity is a Jewih sect gone Pagan Gentile.
Leave that stuff with David Hunt, Hal Lindsey and Jack Chick.
In Messiah,
+Ken Huffman
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
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666
These are some thought s I've had about the #666. The amount of gold that came to Solomon in one year was 666 talents of gold 1 Kings 10:14. This is a measure of weight. The golden idol that Nebuchadnezzar set up was 60 cubits x 6 cubits. This is a linear measurement. Both are measurements of gold. No man might buy or sell without exercising himself in this form of measurement. Caculations for evaluating the worth or value of something are done in the mind/forehead or with the right hand which from the elbow to fingertips is a cubit. Measurement is a type of judgment: "with what measure you measure you shall be measured." This is the main form of measurement in Babylon, weighing ang judging things by the $. In Revelation it speaks of "a golden reed" to measure the holy city. This seems to be a symbol of the word. In Zion all things are weighed judged, evaluated by the word. Golden reed vs. golden gold. The one spiritual, the other natural and carnal. Man without knowledge is as the beasts.
Last edited by _Rob on Mon Jun 20, 2005 4:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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_Priestly1
- Posts: 68
- Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2004 2:47 pm
- Location: McMinnville, Oregon USA
The Apocalypse was written in Greek for Greek Speaking Christians, whether Hebrew or Gentile....thus the use of Hebrew Gematria by Gentry is nonsense. NRWN QSR (666) in Aramaic does spell the Transliterated Greek form of Nero Caesar...but this is only valid if the audience in Asia Minor was Aramaic speaking and did not use the proper Aramiac form of Nero Caesar. Also, the last nun in Neron is in the final form, which equals 700, not the first form which equals 50 in Gematria...sorry Gentry. Also, Neron Kaisar in Greek adds up to 1332.....way off, well unless you divide it by 2..so does this mean the Beast will be a second Nero? Could Be..Nero Redivitus.
Irenaeus stated clearly that the Aposcalypse was written in Domitian's Reign and used Greek isopsephia (i.e. Greek numerology) as the code...so Nero Caesar is out, as it adds up to over 1000. Irenaeus stated that Titan (Gr: TEITAN) the Roman God of the Sun (Sol Invictus) added up to 666, and so did LATEINOC, which means the Latins (I.e. Romans). And in HEBREW Gematria the Latins are called ROMIITH, which also equals 666. Also, the Hebrew word "The Roman" (i.e. Romiti) also adds up to 666...so if you prefer Hebrew over Greek then either way Irenaeus seems spot on. But Saddam or Hussein in Hebrew also add up to 666!
Also "The Latin Empire" (Gr: H LATINE BASILEIA) also adds up to 666. So it seems that according to the most ancient Apocalypse interpreter (Irenaeus) the 6th head of the Beast was the Roman Empire (6th Head of Rome), which existed after five Imperial heads had already fallen (Egypt, Assyria, Babylonia, Medo-Persia & Greece) and it too would fall and another would rise up after it (The Eastern Byzantine Roman Empire {476}?, The Western Holy Roman Empire {800}? or the Eastern Ottoman Empire {1548}? or all three?) and this 7th Imperial Head would be mortally wounded only to rise up again as the final 8th Imperial Head of the Sea Beast..could it be the European Union or a revived Islamic Empire of the East? Could the EU be the ten kings who join with the revived Islamic Empire to destroy a modern Babylon the Great? Who knows.....but it ain't Nero.
But it could mean, for those who depend upon various forms of praeterism, this: 5 Emperors had fallen (Galba, Otho, Vitellus, Vespianus and Titus), one existed as John wrote (Domitianus the 6th Head) and the 7th would be Nerva making his chosen successor & co-ruler Trajan the 8th Head!! Well Rome was expanded to it's greatest extant under his reign.....just adding this for you preterists...but Trajanus does not add up to 666 in Greek, Hebrew or Latin! Bummer. So maybe the praeterist's AntiChrist was Trajan..and the Book of Revelation was written in Domitian's reign as 100% of Church ancient testimonies affirm. But I do not think so, as Irenaeus lived after Trajan.
The phrase "theos eimi epi yaines", which means "I am a god on earth" equals 666. The term "The Great Beast" (Gr: Mega Thrion) also adds up to 666. And "The Heart" in Greek (i.e. he Phren) adds up to 666, and this fits Jeremiah 17:9 LXX...as well as the Aposcalypse's language...as the Beast's number is not that of a particular man (andros), but it is the number of humanity (Anthropos)! And the Beast is not a Man, but the transforming line of human Dominions which will eventually be ruled by the Son of Perdition (i.e. AntiChrist). Thus as the Saints are marked by the Angels with Christ's mark, so too Satan marks his people with the Beast's human number..a heart of deceit, which always seeks to do evil. As the Law of God was to be placed upon the forehead and hand, so too the Law of Satan is places on the forehead and hand of his People.
Is the mark a tattoo, a brand or metaphorical emblem? I believe it is metaphorical, but it also is the Greek isopsephian interpretation of the name of the future son of destruction. He may well originate from the Old Latin Empire of the East & West (i.e. European Union or Ottoman Empire)...he may be a citizen of Old Rome or New Rome (i.e.modern Istanbul)...as both had 7 hills. I do not know.
I do know what the Ancient Church once believed, and it was not the Emperors Nero or Domitian...but someone who would arise from the revived 7th Empire which would succeed the Roman Empire.....as they held the 6th Empire of Rome to be ruled by Babylon the Great (i.e. the Imperial City of Rome) which must fall before the 7th Empire could arise, and it would be the two feet of iron and clay, which would be mortally wounded and brought back to life by the false prophet to come (Mohammed? the Pope? Kissinger? William Jefferson Clinton? Usama Bin Laddin? an Iyatolla? an Imam? Benny Hinn? ROFL!!) If 476 is the date of the Fall of Babylon, then the Byzantine Empire (Constantinople) could well have been the 7th Head of the Beast. It's demise in the mid 15th Century could mean that the 8th Head could be a revived Eastern Islamic Empire (Istanbul), or a revival of both Western & Eastern elements of the Roman Empire (Brussels). I don't know and do not care......I am awaiting Messiah's return as I work in the fields with a full lamp.
In Messiah,
+Ken Huffman
Irenaeus stated clearly that the Aposcalypse was written in Domitian's Reign and used Greek isopsephia (i.e. Greek numerology) as the code...so Nero Caesar is out, as it adds up to over 1000. Irenaeus stated that Titan (Gr: TEITAN) the Roman God of the Sun (Sol Invictus) added up to 666, and so did LATEINOC, which means the Latins (I.e. Romans). And in HEBREW Gematria the Latins are called ROMIITH, which also equals 666. Also, the Hebrew word "The Roman" (i.e. Romiti) also adds up to 666...so if you prefer Hebrew over Greek then either way Irenaeus seems spot on. But Saddam or Hussein in Hebrew also add up to 666!
Also "The Latin Empire" (Gr: H LATINE BASILEIA) also adds up to 666. So it seems that according to the most ancient Apocalypse interpreter (Irenaeus) the 6th head of the Beast was the Roman Empire (6th Head of Rome), which existed after five Imperial heads had already fallen (Egypt, Assyria, Babylonia, Medo-Persia & Greece) and it too would fall and another would rise up after it (The Eastern Byzantine Roman Empire {476}?, The Western Holy Roman Empire {800}? or the Eastern Ottoman Empire {1548}? or all three?) and this 7th Imperial Head would be mortally wounded only to rise up again as the final 8th Imperial Head of the Sea Beast..could it be the European Union or a revived Islamic Empire of the East? Could the EU be the ten kings who join with the revived Islamic Empire to destroy a modern Babylon the Great? Who knows.....but it ain't Nero.
But it could mean, for those who depend upon various forms of praeterism, this: 5 Emperors had fallen (Galba, Otho, Vitellus, Vespianus and Titus), one existed as John wrote (Domitianus the 6th Head) and the 7th would be Nerva making his chosen successor & co-ruler Trajan the 8th Head!! Well Rome was expanded to it's greatest extant under his reign.....just adding this for you preterists...but Trajanus does not add up to 666 in Greek, Hebrew or Latin! Bummer. So maybe the praeterist's AntiChrist was Trajan..and the Book of Revelation was written in Domitian's reign as 100% of Church ancient testimonies affirm. But I do not think so, as Irenaeus lived after Trajan.
The phrase "theos eimi epi yaines", which means "I am a god on earth" equals 666. The term "The Great Beast" (Gr: Mega Thrion) also adds up to 666. And "The Heart" in Greek (i.e. he Phren) adds up to 666, and this fits Jeremiah 17:9 LXX...as well as the Aposcalypse's language...as the Beast's number is not that of a particular man (andros), but it is the number of humanity (Anthropos)! And the Beast is not a Man, but the transforming line of human Dominions which will eventually be ruled by the Son of Perdition (i.e. AntiChrist). Thus as the Saints are marked by the Angels with Christ's mark, so too Satan marks his people with the Beast's human number..a heart of deceit, which always seeks to do evil. As the Law of God was to be placed upon the forehead and hand, so too the Law of Satan is places on the forehead and hand of his People.
Is the mark a tattoo, a brand or metaphorical emblem? I believe it is metaphorical, but it also is the Greek isopsephian interpretation of the name of the future son of destruction. He may well originate from the Old Latin Empire of the East & West (i.e. European Union or Ottoman Empire)...he may be a citizen of Old Rome or New Rome (i.e.modern Istanbul)...as both had 7 hills. I do not know.
I do know what the Ancient Church once believed, and it was not the Emperors Nero or Domitian...but someone who would arise from the revived 7th Empire which would succeed the Roman Empire.....as they held the 6th Empire of Rome to be ruled by Babylon the Great (i.e. the Imperial City of Rome) which must fall before the 7th Empire could arise, and it would be the two feet of iron and clay, which would be mortally wounded and brought back to life by the false prophet to come (Mohammed? the Pope? Kissinger? William Jefferson Clinton? Usama Bin Laddin? an Iyatolla? an Imam? Benny Hinn? ROFL!!) If 476 is the date of the Fall of Babylon, then the Byzantine Empire (Constantinople) could well have been the 7th Head of the Beast. It's demise in the mid 15th Century could mean that the 8th Head could be a revived Eastern Islamic Empire (Istanbul), or a revival of both Western & Eastern elements of the Roman Empire (Brussels). I don't know and do not care......I am awaiting Messiah's return as I work in the fields with a full lamp.
In Messiah,
+Ken Huffman
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
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Interesting thoughts, Ken! But the Beast system has nothing to do with Rome, a revived Roman Empire, etc. Rather, when the Antichrist enthrones himself in Jerusalem, Jerusalem will become the Babylon the Great of Revelation.
Damon
Damon
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