What does it mean to be spiritually dead?

Man, Sin, & Salvation
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jriccitelli
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Re: What does it mean to be spiritually dead?

Post by jriccitelli » Mon Jul 07, 2014 11:21 am

“… in the day that you eat from it you will surely die” (Genesis 2:17)

I have heard preachers criticize the serpent for adding to Gods words to Adam, yet many preachers do the same thing with the same text. The phrase ‘spiritual death’ (spiritually dead) always struck me as odd. And you are right Psimmond the phrase should seem odd because it is not in the text, or the bible at all as far as I can tell. It always reminded me of when Mormons add ‘in purpose’ to the phrase “God is One” (Mormons say: God is One, in purpose).
‘… I have often heard preachers say; 'when Adam sinned, he died spiritually'. I suppose they say this, since it is not in the bible, because they don't understand that they were cursed with physical death at that point, people are put in the LOF - this is the spiritual death, obviously the physical rots in the ground’ (Me, Apr.15 in ‘My Case for eternal Hell’ thread)
I now know where most modern preachers get their theology: from their seminary professors and the supposed ‘great’ commentaries and commentators. Who have pretty much copied each others thinking in this area, they are all assuming that hell was eternal punishment. I find very little original thinking in this area in commentaries, and often they seem to have read another commentator and closed the book. Many commentators seem to go towards eternal ‘death’ in their description of death, yet 'change course' when speaking of hell in order to allow for the eternal punishment assumption (which goes along with the mistaken idea that man has an immortal spirit).

I have noticed that some ‘bibles’ actually add the word spiritual to death in some of Paul’s teachings, when the word is just death (or blood, or, in some instances). This is plainly deceptive and incongruent in these contexts of Paul, because Paul never ‘spiritualizes’ death. Paul plainly calls death ‘death’. Paul taught and understood the curse of sin was death; the law of sin was death, and that without Gods Spirit (being born again) all people are still under the curse, and the law of sin and death.

But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter’ (Romans 7:6)
For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death (Romans 8:2)… For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace (8:6)… If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness. But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you
(8:10-11)
The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law' (1Cor. 15:56)
"Whoever will not observe the law of your God and the law of the king, let judgment be executed upon him strictly, whether for death or for banishment or for confiscation of goods or for imprisonment” (Ezra 7:26)

Adam did not die in the 'day' he ate, but the process and decay started that day. The curse of death became his on that day, as well as the curse on all man from then on (it was Gods act of grace that he lived). Our relationship with God was broken, but we are not spiritually dead, ‘yet’. Still, the death of the spirit is much different from 'spiritualizing' death, or calling death spiritual because it makes death sound like 'something other' than 'death'. The lake of fire is where the ‘spirit’ will be put to death. I believe the ‘Day’ mentioned in Genesis 2 is reflected in the statements concerning ‘The Great and Terrible Day’ we are warned of in following revelations by the Prophets.

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TheEditor
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Re: What does it mean to be spiritually dead?

Post by TheEditor » Mon Jul 07, 2014 11:44 am

Hi JR,

I have never thought of the term "spirtually dead" to be a reference to one's pneuma (in the sense the orthodox use it). I always thought of it in terms of one's "outlook" or "standing". So, when Paul speaks of the "spirtual man's" superiority over the "physical man", he talks in terms of the ability of the spritiual man to see or discern things both of the flesh as well as the spirit.

If "death" always means just that, then why did you use Romans 7:6 in making your point?

But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter’ (Romans 7:6)


What kind of "dieing" is this? Literal? or figurative?

Regards, Brenden
[color=#0000FF][b]"It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery."[/b][/color]

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Re: What does it mean to be spiritually dead?

Post by mattrose » Mon Jul 07, 2014 12:31 pm

jriccitelli wrote:
"I have heard preachers criticize the serpent for adding to Gods words to Adam, yet many preachers do the same thing with the same text" [by adding 'spiritual' in front of death]....

"I now know where most modern preachers get their theology: from their seminary professors and the supposed ‘great’ commentaries and commentators"...

"Adam did not die in the 'day' he ate, but the process and decay started that day. The curse of death became his on that day, as well as the curse on all man from then on (it was Gods act of grace that he lived). Our relationship with God was broken, but we are not spiritually dead, ‘yet’. Still, the death of the spirit is much different from 'spiritualizing' death, or calling death spiritual because it makes death sound like 'something other' than 'death'. The lake of fire is where the ‘spirit’ will be put to death. I believe the ‘Day’ mentioned in Genesis 2 is reflected in the statements concerning ‘The Great and Terrible Day’ we are warned of in following revelations by the Prophets."
I don't think you are being quite fair here.

You are critiquing modern preachers, seminar professors, and commentary writers for doing something that you are doing too (something we all have to do in that passage). They are adding 'spiritual' before death to explain the fact that he didn't die on that day. You are adding 'the process of [death] began' to death to explain the same thing. I don't see a big difference. If you preached, taught, or wrote your view I could accuse you of the same thing you've complained about in them.

The reality is... commenting on Scripture to make sense of it is inevitable. We shouldn't trick ourselves into thinking institutions do it while we don't.

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Re: What does it mean to be spiritually dead?

Post by jriccitelli » Mon Jul 07, 2014 2:12 pm

Matt, did you not just read the previous other interpretations in this thread that the phrase 'spiritual death' sometimes puts upon the Genesis passage? (thanks to the spiritualizing of the passage). And as Psimmond layed out the odd interpretations of the passage so clearly, and he was correct in wondering 'how' this thinking connects to the passage. It's because none of these spiritualized interpretations have anything to do with the Genesis passage:
"... (It seems this might be synonymous with spiritual blindness as well.) It seems the teaching is that this spiritual death separates us from God and makes it impossible for us to understand spiritual matters. It also strips us of any ability or desire to reconnect to God. It isn't until God's prevenient grace draws us that our spiritual blinders are removed and we can believe the truth of the gospel (Psimmond)
Tell Psimmond he was wrong in thinking it was odd, not me then. I applaud Psimmond for his discernment of the pulpit Christianese. I am very aware Preachers are explaining a passage to help understanding. And I am well aware that preachers might 'seem' to be saying 'spiritual death' means a 'sure future death', and a future death is what I would 'presume' they mean, but that is 'not' where they so often 'continue' to develop their teaching. When explaining a passage I look to 'other' passages from scripture to explain the passage. I do not recall the sermons I've so often heard actually explaining the truth of the statement, rather they end up redefining the word death. In this instance the only way to understand it is from the context of Genesis 2,3 and 4, and from contexts later on which talk of death. Throughout the rest of scripture i do not read of anyone experiencing 'spiritual death' until the lake of fire.
Gods statement was a command, the penalty was a Judgment, and it resulted in the curse of death on all mankind. Paul states it as the 'the law of sin and of death'.

Died spiritually is not in the bible, where; under the curse, you will die, you will surly die, the wages of sin is death, the sinner will die,"Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am He, you will die in your sins." (John 8:24). Matt the preachers change the 'meaning' of the passage, if they say the passage 'means' all will 'eventually' die without using the word spiritual death to mean something else, I would have no cause for alarm.
What kind of "dieing" is this? Literal? or figurative?
Spiritually speaking and spiritual death are two different things. The word means died, died to our flesh. Everyone will die in the flesh and the spirit eventually, unless they are born again. When you are born again, you escape the second death which is the death of our spirit. We have not died 'spiritually' yet, we are though under the judgment and sentence of death. (And note the 'Spirit' Paul is speaking of is in the new man, it is the Holy Spirit that indwells the spiritual man, whom we serve with our own spirit)

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Re: What does it mean to be spiritually dead?

Post by mattrose » Mon Jul 07, 2014 3:03 pm

Truth be told... I have a hard time reading your posts. I don't mean that to be mean (it may very well be my fault). The sentences just don't flow as I read them. I probably shouldn't have commented given that I hadn't read all the posts in this thread AND given that my point was un-related to the topic of this thread. I was responding to the consistent animosity you seem to have towards 'preachers' 'seminaries' and 'commentaries.' I don't think your critique of these industries is very edifying. Sure, there are faults. But all three also offer the church a lot of good.

As for the matter being discussed, I think we can all agree that we are hopeless without grace. Some people replace that word 'hopeless' with the word 'dead' and, I think in most cases, they just mean what everyone else would mean by 'hopeless.' Grace makes us response-able and responsible. And there is no shortage of grace in the world. I think we're in general agreement on these issues.

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Re: What does it mean to be spiritually dead?

Post by dwilkins » Mon Jul 07, 2014 9:48 pm

Matt,

This might belong under the topic of "Misreading Scripture with Western Eyes", but one of the books footnoted there was "Honor, Patronage, Kinship & Purity". It gives a very interesting take on the concept of "grace". Your reference to the term brought this to mind. The point in the second book (summarized in the first one) is that "grace" and "faith" come from the patronage system in which a godfather type person would show grace to a poor person who would show faith back to him. It had a lot more to do with giving a gift to someone and their sense of obligation than the theological implications we put on it today. If you haven't read it, I highly recommend it (though it's a bit dry, and as always, I wouldn't agree with every point).

http://www.amazon.com/Honor-Patronage-K ... hip+purity

Doug

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Re: What does it mean to be spiritually dead?

Post by jriccitelli » Tue Jul 08, 2014 11:11 am

Although my criticism of pastors may seem harsh, I do also hold out the highest praise and the highest respect for pastors. I ‘also’ hold them highest in accountability. All of us as Christians need to take criticism, and expect it. The way the world is going it will be getting worse, in fact persecution is increasing. My criticism of the commentaries is well founded in some areas. I see a repetition of the same ideas as if it is circular reasoning. I see laziness on the side of a lot of preachers and sermons that fluff their knowledge with a few commentaries yet have no depth of the word.

Matt you, I find, are genuine, very knowledgeable, and a true Christian. I like what you have to say, even though we don’t always agree (and those who always agree aren’t really human).

Addressing my own writings, true I can’t follow them either. I have found that if I read them word for word, slowly, it helps. But so as not to allow the dead to be forgotten or spiritualized, I will continue with my rant:
Last edited by jriccitelli on Tue Jul 08, 2014 11:39 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: What does it mean to be spiritually dead?

Post by jriccitelli » Tue Jul 08, 2014 11:26 am

If a preacher wants to comment on the Genesis passage and say that Adams sin set off a chain of events that included the curses, world wide corruption, sins of every kind, false religions and gods, the abuse of children, abortion, spiritual ignorance and the eventual end of the world as we know it, then fine. But that is not 'what God said' to Adam, neither is it what God said would ‘happen’ to Adam (if he ate from the tree).
What God said is: that in the day you eat of it you will ‘die’.

If someone says Adam and Eve ‘simply’ suffered spiritual death they are wrong.
If someone interprets ‘Gods words to Adam’ to mean ‘only’ separation from God / unable to understand spiritual matters / spiritual blindness, they are wrong. These things are not the same as ‘surely death’.
For one: their flesh was still alive, and two: their spirit was still alive. They did not yet experience either death, yet.

I personally do not believe they suffered blindness or separation to the degree often believed.
These things have all the connotations of total depravity and Calvinism. If anything Adam and Eve’s eyes were opened, blindness I believe is a choice. “Our sins have separated us from the Lord our God” (Isaiah 53) but also "But from there you will seek the LORD your God, and you will find Him if you search for Him with all your heart and all your soul” (Duet 4:29). They now knew right from wrong, and they could still communicate with God, but separated by sins and blinded by temptations, desire and the flesh. This vague phrase (spiritually dead) allows for an unlimited interpretation that detracts and eventually ignores the actual significance of death itself. And confuses the ‘actual’ statement to Adam (thence Eve also).

dizerner

Re: What does it mean to be spiritually dead?

Post by dizerner » Tue Jul 08, 2014 4:01 pm

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Re: What does it mean to be spiritually dead?

Post by jriccitelli » Tue Jul 08, 2014 5:24 pm

"in the day you eat of it you will die" (Me)
"in the day that you eat from it you will surely die” (NASB)
I don't know how you talk normally but when i talk i usually talk in a contemporary style, not King James, Young's literal, and not in Hebrew. i was not copying the passage, i just paraphrased off the top of my head since i had posted it a least twice in this thread and probably a hundred times over on this forum.

Although we agree theologically, I do not see how you get anything else out of this verses context but 'you will surely die'.
I have studied for and taught a bible study on 'these two chapters' of Genesis extensively for ten years straight.
Click my name to read my other posts, and you will see that I have been arguing for (basically) what you said, for 2 years here: Death is both body and soul in Hell. And i said in the thread i believe the death God is speaking of to Adam is of both the body and the spirit (eventually, if you don't have Christ).

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