What does it mean to be spiritually dead?

Man, Sin, & Salvation
Post Reply
User avatar
psimmond
Posts: 438
Joined: Thu Jul 22, 2010 7:31 pm
Location: Sharpsburg, GA
Contact:

What does it mean to be spiritually dead?

Post by psimmond » Sat Jul 05, 2014 2:25 pm

When it comes to Christianity the area of greatest confusion for me is what exactly it means to be spiritually dead.

I've been taught from the time I was little that Adam and Eve experienced spiritual death at the moment they ate from the fruit. And ever since then every human has been born into this world spiritually dead. (It seems this might be synonymous with spiritual blindness as well.) It seems the teaching is that this spiritual death separates us from God and makes it impossible for us to understand spiritual matters. It also strips us of any ability or desire to reconnect to God. It isn't until God's prevenient grace draws us that our spiritual blinders are removed and we can believe the truth of the gospel.

Here are the issues I have with the above presentation:
1. Although I can find verses scattered throughout the bible that can be collected to support this, if it were true, it seems it would be presented cohesively somewhere.
2. The Bible says if we seek God we will find him, but if we cannot find him because we are spiritually blind, why would the Bible say this?
3. Also Romans says ignorance is not an excuse for anyone since all can know from viewing creation that God exists and has power. How can this be if all are spiritually blind? Or is God's creation the prevenient grace?
4. Jesus said when he was lifted up he would draw all people to himself. How does this play into it all. Does this mean he enables the spiritually blind to see? Does this mean before Jesus was lifted up they were drawn to the Father, or does this mean something altogether different?
5. Romans 1:21 to the end says at some point in the past some people (Gentiles I guess) lived in such a way that God delivered them over to their cravings. Did they become spiritually blind at this point?

I think I may be asking some of the same questions Pelagius asked.

I would greatly appreciate it if y'all would address the 5 questions above and the paragraph that precedes them. Thanks.
Let me boldly state the obvious. If you are not sure whether you heard directly from God, you didn’t.
~Garry Friesen

dizerner

Re: What does it mean to be spiritually dead?

Post by dizerner » Sat Jul 05, 2014 4:07 pm

[user account removed]
Last edited by dizerner on Sun Feb 19, 2023 1:33 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
psimmond
Posts: 438
Joined: Thu Jul 22, 2010 7:31 pm
Location: Sharpsburg, GA
Contact:

Re: What does it mean to be spiritually dead?

Post by psimmond » Sat Jul 05, 2014 8:06 pm

Hi dizerner, thanks for your response.

Actually when I wrote the first point I wasn't thinking about the unregenerate. I was thinking about how followers of Christ read and live out biblical doctrine. It seems a lot of doctrine is presented in a pretty straightforward manner--especially the doctrine we refer to as the essentials of the faith, like what you find in the creeds. Yet this whole spiritually dead, drawn by the Spirit, and seeking God seems very ambiguous in spite of the fact that it's foundational for salvation.

In response to the 5th point, you said you believed it was talking about a time in the past when those people (presumably Gentiles or maybe a particular group of Gentiles) became spiritually blind and then this blindness was passed down through the generations as a curse. So what do you think about the doctrine that says all people are born spiritually dead and blind as a result of Adam's disobedience? And if Paul is explaining to the Gentiles in Rome how it is that they came to be spiritually blind, can we assume his explanation would apply to all Gentiles everywhere? And what about the Jews? Are they not spiritually blind?

I probably shouldn't have mentioned Pelagius since I know almost nothing about him, but I was thinking that he believed it didn't take a special revelation from God for a person to know that God exists (Rom 1:19-20) and then to seek and find him (Acts 17:27).

I'm still extremely confused on this matter. :?
Let me boldly state the obvious. If you are not sure whether you heard directly from God, you didn’t.
~Garry Friesen

dizerner

Re: What does it mean to be spiritually dead?

Post by dizerner » Sat Jul 05, 2014 9:20 pm

[user account removed]
Last edited by dizerner on Sun Feb 19, 2023 1:34 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
TheEditor
Posts: 814
Joined: Thu Sep 16, 2010 9:09 pm

Re: What does it mean to be spiritually dead?

Post by TheEditor » Sat Jul 05, 2014 11:27 pm

Interesting discussion. Don't know that I have any answers, but I can stir the pot a bit:

"For whenever people of the nations that do not have law do by nature the things of the law, these people, although not having law, are a law to themselves. They are the very ones who demonstrate the matter of the law to be written in their hearts, while their conscience is bearing witness with them and, between their own thoughts, they are being accused or even excused. This will be in the day when God through Christ Jesus judges the secret things of mankind, according to the good news I declare." (Romans 2:14-16)

Regards, Brenden.
[color=#0000FF][b]"It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery."[/b][/color]

User avatar
mattrose
Posts: 1920
Joined: Fri Aug 22, 2008 11:28 am
Contact:

Re: What does it mean to be spiritually dead?

Post by mattrose » Sat Jul 05, 2014 11:48 pm

I think sometimes 'dead in sin' just means that we were as good as dead when we were unsaved (disconnected from the source of life).

I think the more 'spiritually blind' language refers to our logical position without the grace of God, but practically nobody is wholly without the (prevenient) grace of God. The point is that if it weren't for God's initiation, we wouldn't be capable of taking steps toward the source of life. But God has initiated, so we are all response-able and responsible.
psimmond wrote: 1. Although I can find verses scattered throughout the bible that can be collected to support this, if it were true, it seems it would be presented cohesively somewhere
Not necessarily. I, too, am often frustrated that the Bible is not more like an encyclopedia. But it's not.
2. The Bible says if we seek God we will find him, but if we cannot find him because we are spiritually blind, why would the Bible say this?
Anyone seeking God is able to do so only in response to grace and, thus, no longer totally blind.
3. Also Romans says ignorance is not an excuse for anyone since all can know from viewing creation that God exists and has power. How can this be if all are spiritually blind? Or is God's creation the prevenient grace?
The evidence of creation is, indeed, one of the forms of prevenient grace.
4. Jesus said when he was lifted up he would draw all people to himself. How does this play into it all. Does this mean he enables the spiritually blind to see? Does this mean before Jesus was lifted up they were drawn to the Father, or does this mean something altogether different?
I take it to mean that the message of Jesus is another form of prevenient grace.
5. Romans 1:21 to the end says at some point in the past some people (Gentiles I guess) lived in such a way that God delivered them over to their cravings. Did they become spiritually blind at this point?
I do think many people become spiritually blind through their rejection of grace.

dwilkins
Posts: 647
Joined: Fri Dec 21, 2012 2:54 pm

Re: What does it mean to be spiritually dead?

Post by dwilkins » Sun Jul 06, 2014 1:07 am

It might make it easier to see the definition of dead by looking at what Paul would describe as spiritually alive. From Paul's point of view (and in the cosmology of most of his readers) pneumas existed as a physical property of all things in the universe. It was fairly strong in biological living things because they had the breath (pneumas) of life. But, God reached down to each believer and inserted a nugget of his personal, perfect pneumas into each one of them, literally redefining them into more advanced creatures than anything else in the universe. From Paul's point of view, this made them able to understand God's thoughts and the datalink (or power connection) established by having a piece of his pneumas in each person guaranteed that this person's pneumas would be renovated and would be in the presence of God forever. On earth, having meat suits housing God's pneumas allowed for a new concept in temples, where instead of the interface or landing pad for God being a single alter, it happened through each person who had this issuance of pneumas. Being spiritually alive meant having a bit of God's pneumas physically living in you. Being spiritually dead meant living as a piece of meat, just like any animal in the fields.

Doug

User avatar
psimmond
Posts: 438
Joined: Thu Jul 22, 2010 7:31 pm
Location: Sharpsburg, GA
Contact:

Re: What does it mean to be spiritually dead?

Post by psimmond » Sun Jul 06, 2014 6:54 am

So mattrose, it seems you are saying the default position of every human that comes into this world is not spiritual blindness (since God's prevenient grace is a reality for everyone everywhere). That would seem to work well with Romans 1:21 to the end:
21 For though they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God or show gratitude. Instead, their thinking became nonsense, and their senseless minds were darkened.
22 Claiming to be wise, they became fools
23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man, birds, four-footed animals, and reptiles.

24 Therefore God delivered them over in the cravings of their hearts to sexual impurity, so that their bodies were degraded among themselves.
25 They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served something created instead of the Creator, who is praised forever. * Amen.
From Idolatry to Depravity
26 This is why God delivered them over to degrading passions. For even their females exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones.
27 The males in the same way also left natural relations with females and were inflamed in their lust for one another. Males committed shameless acts with males and received in their own persons the appropriate penalty of their error.

28 And because they did not think it worthwhile to acknowledge God, God delivered them over to a worthless mind to do what is morally wrong.
29 They are filled with all unrighteousness, evil, greed, and wickedness. They are full of envy, murder, quarrels, deceit, and malice. They are gossips,
30 slanderers, God-haters, arrogant, proud, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents,
31 undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, and unmerciful.
32 Although they know full well God’s just sentence — that those who practice such things deserve to die33 — they not only do them, but even applaud34 others who practice them.
Do you think that the people mentioned above were spiritually blind or just spiritually dull? It seems the fact that Paul is sharing the truth of the gospel with them indicates his belief that they can see the truth.
Let me boldly state the obvious. If you are not sure whether you heard directly from God, you didn’t.
~Garry Friesen

dwilkins
Posts: 647
Joined: Fri Dec 21, 2012 2:54 pm

Re: What does it mean to be spiritually dead?

Post by dwilkins » Sun Jul 06, 2014 8:53 am

Regarding Romans 1 (really, to Romans 1:17-2:11), it's more than that they can see the truth. It's that they did see the truth, had received not only the rules of God, but had fallen away from them. This passage is not aimed at Gentiles and is not a description of general revelation. It's a description of Israel from the time of the Exodus forward. It is making the point that they had received clear revelation from God and deliberately chose to walk away from it and to choose to act like a bunch of animals (i.e., Gentiles). Therefore, they aren't any better than Gentiles and God won't show any favoritism towards them at the final judgment. Everyone will be judged by personal faith, not membership in a group such as Israel.

Doug

User avatar
TheEditor
Posts: 814
Joined: Thu Sep 16, 2010 9:09 pm

Re: What does it mean to be spiritually dead?

Post by TheEditor » Sun Jul 06, 2014 11:31 am


Hi Doug,

You wrote:

This passage is not aimed at Gentiles and is not a description of general revelation. It's a description of Israel from the time of the Exodus forward.


I am curious on what you base this? I have yet to see this in any commentary and don't personally ascertain that from the text when I read it. How readest thou?

Regards, Brenden.
[color=#0000FF][b]"It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery."[/b][/color]

Post Reply

Return to “Anthropology, Hamartiology, Soteriology”