Salvation: 1 The Formula

Man, Sin, & Salvation
steve7150
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Re: Salvation: 1 The Formula

Post by steve7150 » Wed Nov 20, 2013 9:35 am

However, I might say my position is similar to that of Mikhail Hany of the Coptic Orthodox Church. I think I also previously posted a link to the first of his 12 video talks.
Here is the first. The second is available at the site in which you watch the first. And similarly the others are readily available.






Paidion,

Why do you think Jesus had to endure the punishment and torturous death he had to go through if deliverance from sin was the only purpose God had in mind. In other words what would be the connection between torturous death and deliverance from sin? Could Jesus have lived a perfect life and ascended into heaven and sent back the Holy Spirit to deliver us from sin without all the unpleasantness?

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Paidion
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Re: Salvation: 1 The Formula

Post by Paidion » Wed Nov 20, 2013 12:34 pm

Why do you think Jesus had to endure the punishment and torturous death he had to go through if deliverance from sin was the only purpose God had in mind.
I think that is the case because God's priority is to heal mankind of his sin-sickness, the consequence of which is much suffering. God so loves mankind that He wishes fullness of joy and fruitful living. When people are delivered from the evils they do to one another, they will have joy everlasting!
What would be the connection between torturous death and deliverance from sin?
I haven't the slightest idea as to the logistics.

How about the theory which I oppose so strongly?

What would the connection between torturous death and becoming positionally righteous so that when God looks at us, He is blinded to our sin but sees only Christ's righteousness so that we can go to heaven forever? Why could He not simply see Christ's righteousness without causing (or permitting) such extreme suffering leading to death?

Could Jesus have lived a perfect life and ascended into heaven and covered our sin without all the unpleasantness?
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

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steve7150
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Re: Salvation: 1 The Formula

Post by steve7150 » Wed Nov 20, 2013 3:36 pm

What would be the connection between torturous death and deliverance from sin?



I haven't the slightest idea as to the logistics.

How about the theory which I oppose so strongly?

What would the connection between torturous death and becoming positionally righteous so that when God looks at us, He is blinded to our sin but sees only Christ's righteousness so that we can go to heaven forever? Why could He not simply see Christ's righteousness without causing (or permitting) such extreme suffering leading to death?





I don't precisely know but in Isa 53 it sounds like a penal substitution penalty which i understand you disagree with. Even a penal substitution /torturous death is hard to understand but if Jesus is taking the place of sinful mankind then maybe he has to experience what man should experience.

I can't make a convincing argument but i can see some opaque connection here, but in your belief of only deliverance from sin without a forgiveness element , i just can't see any connection between Jesus punishment and deliverance from sin.

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Paidion
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Re: Salvation: 1 The Formula

Post by Paidion » Thu Nov 21, 2013 11:45 am

I don't precisely know but in Isa 53 it sounds like a penal substitution penalty which i understand you disagree with.
Isaiah 53 doesn't sound that way in the Septuagint translation which was probably translated from an earlier form of Hebrew than the Masoretic text from which most Bible Versions are translated. (Some call it "The Egyptian text type"). The earlier form of Hebrew seems to be that which was found in the Dead Sea Scrolls found in Cave 4 at Qumran. It also seems to be the same Hebrew which New Testament writers used when quoting from the old—either that, or the NT writers used the Septuagint.
...but in your belief of only deliverance from sin without a forgiveness element , i just can't see any connection between Jesus punishment and deliverance from sin.
Paul, Peter, and the writer to the Hebrews definitely saw a connection.

I Peter 2:24 He himself endured our sins in his body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. By his wounds you have been healed.

II Corinthians 5:15 And he died for all, that those who live might live no longer for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised.

Romans 14:9 For to this end Christ died and lived again, that he might be Lord both of the dead and of the living.

Titus 2:14 who gave himself for us to redeem us from all iniquity and to purify for himself a people of his own who are zealous for good deeds.

Heb 9:26 ...he has appeared once for all at the end of the age to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself.


Please read the Titus verse in context. Paul makes it pretty clear!
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

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Homer
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Re: Salvation: 1 The Formula

Post by Homer » Thu Nov 21, 2013 12:56 pm

Jeremiah wrote:
When you say plainly taught, would the foundation of this imputation be found in Romans 4 and 5? Or elsewhere?
Yes, primarily there, but in various other places. As I understand the scriptures, imputation goes both ways - from Christ to us and from us to Christ:

2 Corinthians 5:21, New American Standard Bible (NASB)

21. He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

Jesus never sinned but our sin was imputed to Him; He was crucified in our place, treated as though He was a sinner. And His righteousness was imputed to us in Him. Being in Him we are accounted as righteous, just as we are "chosen in Him", Ephesians 1:4. We are treated as though we are righteous, even though we fall short.

Philippians 3:8-9, New American Standard Bible (NASB)

8. More than that, I count all things to be loss in view of the surpassing value of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them but rubbish so that I may gain Christ, 9. and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith,

Paul did not have a righteousness of his own by obedience to the law (any law), but his righteousness was through faith in Christ, came from God, based on faith.

Still waiting for Paidion's reply as to when and how he knows he is righteous if he is not accounted righteous based on faith.

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Paidion
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Re: Salvation: 1 The Formula

Post by Paidion » Thu Nov 21, 2013 5:44 pm

Still waiting for Paidion's reply as to when and how he knows he is righteous if he is not accounted righteous based on faith.
Homer, I never think about it. I don't concentrate on my righteousness. I am a disciple of Christ's. It is before my own maker that I stand... or fall. But I will be upheld, for my master is able to make me stand. (Romans 14:4)

Paul spoke of how the grace of God enabled him to labour in evangelism:

But by the grace of God I am what I am, and His grace toward me was not in vain; but I labored more abundantly than they all, yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me. (1Cor. 15:10)

Paul understood fully what this enabling grace of God was:

For the grace of God has appeared for the salvation of all people, training us to renounce impiety and worldly passions, and to live sensible, righteous, and pious lives in the present age, expecting the blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of the great God and of our Savior Jesus Christ, who gave himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own who are zealous for good works. Declare these things; encourage and reprove with total command. Let no one disregard you. (Titus 2:11-15)

How do we appropriate this enabling grace? Through faith—through entrusting ourselves to Christ, clinging to Him in love, submitting to His instructions as best we can. We know what He told us to do in Matt. 5, 6, and 7.

...[God] cleansed their hearts by faith (Cor. 15:10)

... He makes righteous the one of the faith of Jesus. (Ro 3:26)


So through our faith (the same faith as that of Jesus) and God's enabling grace we are able to be righteous—actually righteous, not a pretending righteousness which is thrust upon us, but that which is real.

That is not to say that righteous people are yet complete or perfect. But:

... He who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ. (Philippians 1:6)

The writer of 2 Peter calls even Lot righteous (his life didn't seem to show it):

And if he rescued righteous Lot, greatly distressed by the licentiousness of the wicked,...then Lord knows how to deliver the devout out of trial, but to reserve the unrighteous for a day of judgment, to be corrected. (2 Peter 2:7,9)

Did Lot "know" he was righteous? Or was righteousnesss "accounted to him because of his faith"? Did Christ's death "substitute" for him retroactively?

No. I think we need to examine more carefully the medieval and modern intrepretation of Romans 3 and 4, that Christ "paid for our sins so that we don't have to pay".
No early Christian of the second century until the middle ages held this view. I recall that you pointed out to me statements from the letter to Diognetus, ch. 9, what you considered to teach substitutionary atonement. I can understand how it can be so interpreted if its reader already believes the doctrine. Actually, I had encountered this teaching when I was in my early twenties. At the time, I also thought it taught the doctrine (I believed the doctrine at the time).

I think the matter hinges on the word "δικαιοω"(translated as "I justify"). I say the word NEVER means "I count righteous" or "I deem to be righteous." In the scripture and elsewhere, the word has two basic meanings:

1. I make righteous.
2. I show my action to conform to a set of rules.

The second meaning is much the same was that the word is used in our day. When I was a teacher, I justified what I was doing in the classroom by showing that my methods conformed to the requirements of the local school board and the department of eduction.

The lexicon in my Online Bible gives these two meanings as follow:
1) to render righteous or such he ought to be
2) to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
However, it also gives the meaning which I deny as a third meaning:
3) to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be
With the understanding of the first definition, Romans 3:24-26 becomes clear:

Being made righteous freely through His grace through the redemption in Messiah Jesus, whom God has set forth as a means of mercy, by faith, by His blood, for a showing forth of His rightousness because of the bypassing of sins having previously occurred in the forbearance of God, for the showing forth of His righteousness at the present time, with the result that He is righteous and He makes righteous the one of the faith of Jesus.

Two aspects of God's righteousness are shown here:

1. His bypassing over sins committed by the ancient Hebrews by accepting their sacrifices, and leaving them virtually unchanged, only to try again and fail again, over and over.

2. Through Messiah's blood (His death) providing a way for His people to become righteous as He is righteous. With the same faith Jesus had in the Father, we can have in Jesus and become righteous as Jesus is righteous (Jesus never sinned. But we have not yet been perfected. We are on the narrow path which leads to life and completeness).

Little children, let no one deceive you. Whoever practices righteousness is righteous, as he is righteous. Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil. No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God’s seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God. (1 John 3:7-9 ESV)

If it is true that we are covered with a disguise of righteousness, so that God does not see our sin but Christ's righteousness, then we can sin with impunity. God is deceived in that we appear righteous in His sight. We need to be careful that we have not received the grace of God vain.

We then, as workers together with Him also plead with you not to receive the grace of God in vain. (2Cor. 6:1)

If we think we can receive the grace of God to cover our sins so that we appear righteous in God's eyes, but that all our works count for nothing, then we have received that "grace" in vain. It does us no good whatever, nor anyone else. Rather we must "work together with Him," and the result will be righteous living on our part. We cannot live righteously by self-effort alone. Nor will God sovereignly thrust His righteousness upon us. We must "work together with Him" so that the work will be accomplished.

Paul indicated that he didn't receive the grace of God in vain.

[i]But by the grace of God I am what I am, and His grace toward me was not in vain; but I labored more abundantly than they all, yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me. (1Cor. 15:10)[/i]

If we fall short of receiving this enabling grace by faith, the result is bitterness and trouble. By the "easy way" of being covered and doing nothing, many people are defiled:

Heb 12:15 ... looking carefully lest anyone fall short of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up cause trouble, and by this many become defiled.

How are many defiled when we fall short of God's grace, and teach cheap grace? We convince people that they don't have to work righteousness but only "accept the finished work of Christ." If that is all that is done, people are defiled since they don't consider righteousness to be necessary. They are defiled by sin.

As I quoted from Titus: "Christ gave himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own who are zealous for good works."

Faith and good works go together. Indeed our faith appropriates the enabling grace of God for good works.

... Show me your faith apart from your works, and I by my works will show you my faith. (James 2:18)
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.

steve7150
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Re: Salvation: 1 The Formula

Post by steve7150 » Fri Nov 22, 2013 11:56 am

..but in your belief of only deliverance from sin without a forgiveness element , i just can't see any connection between Jesus punishment and deliverance from sin.



Paul, Peter, and the writer to the Hebrews definitely saw a connection.

I Peter 2:24 He himself endured our sins in his body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. By his wounds you have been healed.

II Corinthians 5:15 And he died for all, that those who live might live no longer for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised.

Romans 14:9 For to this end Christ died and lived again, that he might be Lord both of the dead and of the living.

Titus 2:14 who gave himself for us to redeem us from all iniquity and to purify for himself a people of his own who are zealous for good deeds.

Heb 9:26 ...he has appeared once for all at the end of the age to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself.

Please read the Titus verse in context. Paul makes it pretty clear!







Your are right although i think to redeem us from all iniquity (Tit 2.14) we would have to be forgiven of at least our past sins and probably future sins although that does not diminish the importance of being zealous for good works.
Those were important verses you quoted but there are many that mention forgiveness also and you seem to reject them (as far as i can tell). Is this rejection because you think the translation is incorrect or for some other reason?

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Paidion
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Re: Salvation: 1 The Formula

Post by Paidion » Fri Nov 22, 2013 1:20 pm

If we repent (have a change of heart and mind) concerning our self-serving life, and submit to the authority of God, and begin to walk the Narrow Path, then Christ begins to deliver us from sin and purify us. Of course God is not going to hold our past sins against us when we stay on the Narrow Path. I am not at all certain that God concerns Himself with out past sins anyway—only with our present character, and how it needs changing. This is the process of salvation and continues for a lifetime.

See my signature statement.
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.

kenblogton
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Re: Salvation: 1 The Formula

Post by kenblogton » Sun Dec 08, 2013 4:51 pm

Belated reply to dseusy November 8. Apologies for the delay - I stopped checking for posted replies blogs too soon.
In John 6:29, Jesus says "Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent."" The word translated "believe" is the Greek "pisteuo" Pisteuo means "to believe, put one's faith in, trust, with an implication that actions based on that trust may follow" In Luke 6:46, Jesus says ""Why do you call me, 'Lord, Lord,' and do not do what I say?" Hebrews 5:9 states "and, once made perfect, he [Jesus] became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him" In my original posting, I noted that Acts 20:21, 26:20; 2 Peter 3:9; Luke 3:7-8, 13:1-9; John 5:28-29 all tell us that repentance - changed behaviour - is essential for salvation. As the saying goes, Scripture interprets Scripture. In other words, you must look at all, or at least a representative sample, of Scriptures on any topic, like salvation, to discover the biblical truth on the topic.
In my original posting, I dealt with Romans 10:9, 13 - and so by implication Romans 10:5-10. The key verse is 10:9 "That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved." You must believe [pisteuo] in your heart [genuinely, not merely intellectually or in your head] to be saved.
The thief on the cross beside Jesus repented, so Jesus told him he was destined for paradise/heaven - in other words, saved!
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kenblogton
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Re: Salvation: 1 The Formula

Post by kenblogton » Sun Dec 08, 2013 6:07 pm

Reply to jriccitelli November 20 and Paidion November 22: Positional or imputed (Christ's) versus our actual righteousness.
Prior to Jesus, no one was in heaven - no one had lived a life worthy of salvation (John 3:13). The imperfectly righteous prior to Jesus were in a spiritual holding area, as described in Luke 16: 22-26. Prior to Jesus, there was only actual righteousness. Leviticus 16:21 tells us of the scapegoat which was a symbolic atonement (Hebrews 10:4) for "all the wickedness and rebellion of the Israelites--all their sins" because none were perfectly righteous. Jesus died for our salvation (John 1:29, 3:16-17, 10:14-18, 19:30). Christ's righteousness obtains our right to access salvation - He paid the price for all our sins - past, present, and future.
However, once saved, human perfection is still not possible, as Paul lets us know in Romans 7:14-25 and Philippians 3:12-14. In other words, by our own efforts alone, righteousness is impossible. On our own, we cannot be righteous! So what is required? Jesus tells us no one is good but God (Mark 10:18), that we cannot do good unless we are in Him (John 15:5), and that the good we do is to be credited to God, not ourselves (Matthew 5:16). And when we manifest our imperfect righteousness by sinning, we are to confess them (1 John 1:9) and get back on the narrow repentant path WITH CHRIST'S INDWELLING HOLY SPIRIT GUIDING US, AND NOT IN OUR OWN STRENGTH - IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO BE RIGHTEOUS IN OUR OWN STRENGTH ALONE - WE NEED CHRIST'S HELP!
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