Salvation: 1 The Formula

Man, Sin, & Salvation
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Paidion
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Re: Salvation: 1 The Formula

Post by Paidion » Thu Jan 30, 2014 10:18 pm

Your comments about Hell not being eternal but temporary - where does that idea come from?
The Scriptures indicate that all people will come under the authority of Christ, and that implies that people won't spend eternity in hell, and strongly suggests that Hell is remedial, and thus may be considered as "purgatorial".

Some Scriptures Concerning the Reconciliation of All Things to God

John 12:32,32 … I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself. He said this to show by what death he was to die.

When Jesus was lifted up on the cross, and died, did He draw all people to Himself? Over 2000 years has elapsed since that event. Has He drawn all people to Himself at any time in history? Then how will His word be fulfilled? Will it not be fulfilled when all have come under His feet? When all have submitted to His Lordship?

Colossians 1:19,20 For in him all the fulness of God was pleased to dwell, and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross.

The passage above seems to indicate that it is God’s purpose to reconcile all to Himself.

Ephesians 1:9,10 For he has made known to us in all wisdom and insight the secret of his will, according to his purpose which he set forth in Christ as a plan for the fulness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.

So it seems that God’s plan for the eschaton (the fullness of time) is to unite with His entire creation. That is possible only if the entire creation comes under His rule. Is it not the final stage of the Kingdom of God that all creation be ruled by Him and give Him honour and worship?

Romans 5:18,19 So then as through one transgression condemnation resulted for all people, even so through one righteous act justification of life resulted for all people. For as through the one man’s disobedience the many were constituted sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be constituted righteous.

After Adam sinned, his descendants (all people) inherited the sinful nature and thus their sinful actions resulted in condemnation. By Christ’s righteous act of dying on behalf of the whole world, grace was given to those who submit to Him to live righteously. Since all people will sooner or later be justified, this indicates that all will ultimately, of their own free will, submit to Christ.

Through Adam’s disobedience the many (not just “many”) were constituted sinners. Adam is contrasted with “the many” (everyone else). Similarily, though Christ’s obedience to the death, “the many”(again “everyone else”) will be constituted righteous.


Philippians 2:9-11 Therefore God has highly exalted him [Christ] and bestowed on him the name which is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

I’ve heard it said, “Oh yes, every knee will bow all right --- when they are hit behind the knee with a two-by-four.” But that is not God’s way. His way is to win people to Himself, not force them. Their submission and confession of Jesus as Lord, to the glory of the Father, will come about by their own free will.

The next sentence affirms that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord. No one can be forced to make that confession. It must be voluntary.

Even an earthly king will have far greater glory if his enemies willingly come under his reign than he would have if they were merely forced to submit.

I Timothy 4:10 For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Saviour of all people, especially of those who believe.

This verse states that the living God is the Saviour of all people. In what sense? More than 99% of all people who have lived since Paul wrote this, have not known the Saviour. So it must be that they will all come to know Him in the future. Otherwise, how can He be the Saviour of all people?

In what sense is He the Saviour especially of those who believe? Those who believe (have entrusted themselves to Him) will not have to undergo that severe mercy (the purifying fires of Hell) in order to come to the place of repentance and deliverance from sin.

Revelation 5:12-13 And I heard every created being in heaven and on earth and under the earth and in the sea, and all therein, saying, "To him who sits upon the throne and to the Lamb be blessing and honor and glory and might into the ages of ages!”

In his vision, John hears every created thing in the universe praising God! Even those “under the earth” (presumably in the Lake of Fire). Surely this is not a forced praise, but a genuine praise.

Romans 11:32 For God has consigned all people to disobedience, that he may have mercy upon all.

Some point out that in the scriptures, “all” is sometimes used figuratively. For example in Matthew 8:34, it is stated that “all the city came out to meet Jesus”. In this statement, “all” seems to be used for emphasis to indicate that many people from the city came out. From this it is supposed that the passages which I have quoted may not literally refer to all people. However, in Romans 11:32 above, there is parallel construction. If it is literally all people consigned to disobedience, then it is literally all people upon whom He will have mercy.

Philippians 3:20,21 But our commonwealth is in heaven, and from it we await a Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ, who will change our lowly body to be like his glorious body, by the power which enables him even to subject all things to himself.

What could be clearer? Jesus has the power to subject all to Himself. Some may argue that this will be forced. I think Jesus will greatly influence them to submit, but they won’t be forced.

1 Corinthians 15:22-28 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive. But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ. Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power. For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death. "For God has put all things in subjection under his feet." But when it says, "All things are put in subjection under him," it is plain that he is excepted who put all things under him. When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to him who put all things under him, that God may be everything to every one.

I think that in Adam all die a spiritual death. The scriptures refer to those who are not in Christ as “dead”. But in Christ, all are made spiritually alive. Some may argue that this refers to the fact that all descendants of Adam will die a physical death, and that all of his descendants will also be resurrected, either in the resurrection of the righteous or the resurrection of the unrighteous.

However,according to the apostle Paul, not all the descendants of Adam will die a physical death!

I Corinthians 15:51-54 Lo! I tell you a secret: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed.For this perishable nature must put on the imperishable, and this mortal nature must put on immortality. When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written: "Death is swallowed up in victory."
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.

Jon
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Re: Salvation: 1 The Formula

Post by Jon » Fri Jan 31, 2014 3:27 am

kenblogton wrote:Reply to Jon
Very sad to hear that you left the Church. You can still come back. It's never too late.
Don't be sorry: when I left the Church, I found God and salvation. Salvation is in God, not in the Church. I describe the highlights of my journey in The Journey section in my blog The Narrow Road.
kenblogton
Salvation is in God, through the Church. Whatever you think you've found, if it is outside of the Catholic Church, is a misconception. You can still find your way home, if you are open minded and a seeker of Truth.

kenblogton
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Re: Salvation: 1 The Formula

Post by kenblogton » Fri Jan 31, 2014 9:57 am

Reply to Jon
Salvation is in God, through the Church. Whatever you think you've found, if it is outside of the Catholic Church, is a misconception. You can still find your way home, if you are open minded and a seeker of Truth.
Do you believe that only Roman Catholics are saved and go to heaven? If you do, that is a misconception. The Bible is the source of all truth for believers. Abraham, Isaac and Jacob were not even Christians, yet Jesus tells us in Luke 13:28 that they are in heaven "There will be weeping there, and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but you yourselves thrown out." I would wish for you your wish for me: You can still find your way home, if you are open minded and a seeker of Truth.
kenblogton

Jon
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Re: Salvation: 1 The Formula

Post by Jon » Fri Jan 31, 2014 1:23 pm

As a Roman Catholic do you believe I'm not saved? Why would I need to find my way home if I already believe that Jesus died for my sins?

kenblogton
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Re: Salvation: 1 The Formula

Post by kenblogton » Fri Jan 31, 2014 10:06 pm

Reply to Jon
As a Roman Catholic do you believe I'm not saved? Why would I need to find my way home if I already believe that Jesus died for my sins?
According to the Bible, it matters not what your religious belief is. What matters is that you admit your sinfulness, repent of your sins on an ongoing basis and live a life that manifests the fruit of the spirit. You say that you "believe that Jesus died for my sins." Is your belief intellectual or behavioural? The word for believe in the New Testament is the Greek pisteuo, implying that you behave in a way consistent with your belief and not that you merely believe in the fact that Jesus died for your sins.
I've answered your question. Please answer mine "Do you believe that only Roman Catholics are saved and go to heaven?"
Thanks kenblogton

Jon
Posts: 62
Joined: Wed Oct 05, 2011 8:34 am

Re: Salvation: 1 The Formula

Post by Jon » Sat Feb 01, 2014 10:35 am

kenblogton wrote:Reply to Jon
As a Roman Catholic do you believe I'm not saved? Why would I need to find my way home if I already believe that Jesus died for my sins?
According to the Bible, it matters not what your religious belief is. What matters is that you admit your sinfulness, repent of your sins on an ongoing basis and live a life that manifests the fruit of the spirit. You say that you "believe that Jesus died for my sins." Is your belief intellectual or behavioural? The word for believe in the New Testament is the Greek pisteuo, implying that you behave in a way consistent with your belief and not that you merely believe in the fact that Jesus died for your sins.
I've answered your question. Please answer mine "Do you believe that only Roman Catholics are saved and go to heaven?"
Thanks kenblogton
I actually said my thoughts on this on a different post recently. Here it is, reposted:

It is possible for anyone to be saved. No one can know nor judge but God, the eternal resting place for any individual. Many Catholics will most likely not be saved. Outside of the Catholic Church, usually salvation comes from an extreme circumstance and is not the way Jesus taught, so is probably less likely but not impossible. God gives us all our final judgement.

I pray that I won't be in a state of mortal sin when I die so I may eventually make it to Heaven.

kenblogton
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Joined: Tue Sep 10, 2013 1:39 pm
Location: Barrie, Ontario, Canada

Re: Salvation: 1 The Formula

Post by kenblogton » Sun Feb 02, 2014 9:00 pm

Reply to Jon
It is possible for anyone to be saved. No one can know nor judge but God, the eternal resting place for any individual. Many Catholics will most likely not be saved. Outside of the Catholic Church, usually salvation comes from an extreme circumstance and is not the way Jesus taught, so is probably less likely but not impossible. God gives us all our final judgement.
Thanks for answering my question Jon.
I pray that I won't be in a state of mortal sin when I die so I may eventually make it to Heaven.
The only unforgiveable sin mentioned in the Bible by Jesus is the Sin against the Holy Spirit, which is to see evidence of the work of the Holy Spirit but deny that it is from God. All other sins are forgiven upon repentance.
Blessings kenblogton

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Paidion
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Re: Salvation: 1 The Formula

Post by Paidion » Thu Apr 30, 2015 10:51 am

Three times in the New Testament, Romans 4:3, Galatians 3:6, and James 2:23, the passage is quoted, “Abraham believed God and it was counted to him as righteousness.” (Genesis 15:6)It is a misleading translation. The NASB does even worse in their translation of Romans 4:3, “Abraham believed God and it was credited to him as righteousness.”

This isn’t the idea at all. It is not that God looked at Abraham’s faith and said, “Okay Abraham. You have faith. You don’t have to be actually righteous. I’ll credit your faith to you just as if you had been righteous.”

The passage quoted from Genesis 15:6 in the Septuagint is exactly as Paul and James quoted it. The preposition in Greek is “εις.” This preposition usually means “into.” But then what would it mean to say that God counted Abraham’s faith INTO righteousness? Well, many times in the New Testament, “εις” together with its object, is used to indicate a goal or end result. Abraham’s faith was counted to him toward righteousness, that is with righteousness as the goal or result, Abraham’s faith being the first step in that process.
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.

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