Is discipleship possible before being born again?

[RICHinCHRIST]

I was thinking about Nicodemus today. Clearly, Nicodemus recognized Jesus' authority from God (John 3:2). This is quite a step for Nicodemus to make. He is seeking Jesus, coming to him in the evening in secret, knowing there is something special about Him. He realizes His divine authority, and is open to His teachings. However, Nicodemus is not born of the Spirit yet, as the rest of his conversation proves. In fact, none of the disciples were born of the Spirit until Pentecost (John 7:39).

The reason I ask this is because there is debate about whether someone receives the Spirit in full at conversion, or if there is a necessary "second" experience needed after initial salvation. Is it possible that those who claim to have had a "second" experience of the baptism of the Spirit was actually the point in time in which they were truly born of the Spirit? I'm not saying they weren't saved before that, but perhaps that they were disciples in the sense that the apostles were before Pentecost. Interested in Jesus, yes. Willing to leave all for Jesus, yes. Obedient to the teachings of Jesus, yes... but not yet truly born of the Spirit.

Just a theory... Any thoughts?

The reason I think about this is because sometimes I notice that seekers of the truth are often turned away because they feel like they don't fit the "Christian mold". They aren't interested in stale religion, or in popular Christian music, or forms of dress, or they don't feel like they fit in with other Christians speaking "Christianese" or whatever the case may be. Perhaps they are interested in Jesus' concern for the poor, or His radical life of self-sacrifice, or they notice true wisdom in His teachings. Maybe they get turned off by professing followers of Jesus, so they give up the pursuit of Christ Himself. I've heard Steve Gregg mention before that there is nothing in the Bible that says you have to agree with a certain set of teachings in order to start following Christ (perhaps that is a loose paraphrase and I misunderstood him). In other words, discipleship is a learning process, and one can begin that process at a very minute level. Obviously, if they are serious about that pursuit, they will continue, and subsequently become aligned with good doctrine, and God will meet them in a powerful way (through birthing them anew in His Spirit). I'm wondering if we stunt the pursuit of open-minded people because of our own man-made traditions rather than pointing them to start following Jesus, no matter how far along the path they might be at that time. Perhaps we feel that we have to make them think and act exactly like us before they can start the journey of following Jesus.

[Paidion]

If they truly become disciples of Christ, is that not their regeneration? Is that not when they become begotten again (as with Nicodemus)"?

Jesus said, "Unless you forsake all and follow me, you cannot be my disciple." He also said, “If anyone comes to me and does not discount his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be my disciple." Luke 14:26

So the cost of discipleship is great. It costs us our life. In these passages, Jesus didn't tell them they first had to be regenerated. He simply required them to leave behind their former lives and follow him. When He called Peter and Andrew to discipleship, they simply dropped their nets and followed Him.

A young man, seeking to inherit lasting life, who had kept all the commandments from his youth on, asked Jesus what he still lacked. Jesus replied, "Just one thing. Sell all you have and give it to the poor, and then come and follow me." The young man couldn't bring himself to part with all of his possessions. In none of these cases, did Jesus tell them that they first had to become begotten again.

[RICHinCHRIST]

If they truly become disciples of Christ, is that not their regeneration? Is that not when they become begotten again (as with Nicodemus)"?

Are you saying, therefore, that at the moment one decides to forsake all of their life in order to be a disciple, that at that point they are regenerated and born anew? What about the apostles? They hadn't been regenerated until Pentecost.

[look2jesus]

My take on this has to do with recognizing the lordship of Jesus Christ. I think when a person does that, they enter the kingdom of God. This would include all those who recognized the lordship of Jesus prior to Pentecost and those who recognized Him during that event and those who recognize Him as lord today. Peter, at Pentecost, testified to all the house of Israel that God had made Jesus both Lord and Christ by raising Him (Acts 2). Paul and those with him proclaimed Jesus Christ as Lord (2Cor. 4:5). And, in Romans 10, when Paul said that if a person confessed Jesus as Lord and believed that God raised Him from the dead, that person would be saved. I believe that the resurrection demonstrated that Jesus is Lord. I don't think Paul was saying that you have to 1) confess that Jesus is Lord and 2) believe that God raised him from the dead, as if it might be possible to do one without the other.

Therefore, as to your post Rich, I think a seeker can follow after Christ, to the extent that he is interested in finding out about Jesus, but when faith comes, and it is actualized in the seeker's heart, then the seeker has entered the kingdom and has become a disciple and has passed from death to life.

As far as Nicodemus is concerned, and others who followed Jesus before His death and resurrection, if Jesus was their lord (through like faith with Abraham) then they belonged to the kingdom of God. But it wasn't until Pentecost that anyone recieved the permanent indwelling of the Holy Spirit. That, I believe, is limited to those entering into the New Covenant, which is what Jesus was talking about in His conversation with Nicodemus, imo.

l2j

[Paidion]

It's true that the Spirit wasn't given to dwell within the disciples until that special day of Pentecost. But how do you know that no regeneration took place until then? If that were the case, why would Jesus stress being generated (or "begotten") of the Spirit with Nicodemus? He went into great detail with him about it. If Nicodemus couldn't be regenerated until that day of Pentecost, why would Jesus not have added, "But you have to wait. You cannot be generated again until the Holy Spirit is given later"?

It doesn't make sense to me to stress regeneration with someone at a time when he could not be regenerated at that time.

[look2jesus]

Dear Paidion,

I believe that Jesus came, when He did, to establish the New Covenant. I don't believe He accomplished this until He died and resurrected. I believe that the scripture indicates that "regeneration" or being "born again" is inseparably related to the "eternal life" that Jesus spoke so often about. The writer of Hebrews indicates that it was through His blood that Jesus secured an eternal redemption (Heb. 9:12). The writer goes on to say that because He is the mediator of a new covenant, those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance, since a death has occured that redeems them from the transgressions committed under the first covenant (vs.15).

Now, it might be that during Jesus' ministry, before He was actually crucified and raised again, followers who believed in Him received this "life", but this would only have been due to the fact that His ministry lasted over three years and would simply represent a somewhat unusual period of time--that being the transitional time it took for Jesus to accomplish all that He intended to accomplish.

However, if anyone during this time was "regenerated" (which might be fair to speculate) I believe it would have been accomplished on credit, as it were, based upon the soon work of Christ on the cross and the final establishing of the New Covenant. So, either way, I could see Jesus' conversation with Nicodemus representing the current circumstances, with the New Covenant promises inhering in Christ prior to the soon consummation of it or, on the other hand, Jesus speaking in present terms of what He was about to accomplish. Jesus did say that it was the Spirit that gives life (John 6) and he did tell His disciples that the comforter would not come until He went away so the question may be better put, "What is the difference between the work of the Holy Spirit prior to Jesus' death and resurrection as opposed to His work subsequent to those events?" I'm quite sure that I don't have it completely figured out.

l2j

[Paidion]

Thanks for your thoughts, L2J. Perphaps because of that transitional period of which you write, God through Jesus was able to bestow the Spirit upon His apostles when He breathed on them and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit" (John 20:22) even at a time prior to His death and that special day of Pentecost.

[Cheryl]

Paidon says: So the cost of discipleship is great. It costs us our life.

Amen! You are so right. But the life he has given me is so much better than the one I had when I was living on my own.

[Paidion]

You also are so right, Cheryl! Thank you for sharing that.

[RICHinCHRIST]

Great comments so far. I guess I was too quick to use the term "discipleship". I understand that discipleship is an "all-or-nothing" type of commitment, but I guess I was more or less thinking about seekers who are interested enough to participate in Christian-type activities (i.e. helping the poor, praying, conversing with other Christians, reading the Bible, etc.) but haven't yet made the step of complete dedication to Christ. I was thinking about the word "disciple" and how it means "learner" or "follower". I was wondering how far someone has to be in order to be considered a "learner" of Jesus. Perhaps one might not need to be that far along in their knowledge or commitment before they start "learning" about and from Jesus. At some point the seeker will need to make that all-out commitment (if they truly continue to "learn" and "follow"), but I wonder if they could be considered a learner before they come to that place of complete dedication.

I've noticed that some seekers have stumbling blocks that keep them from a complete surrender. These stumbling blocks may be avoided if they understood that there is freedom in Christ to keep their own identity and not have to conform to a certain religious standard. For example, let's say someone is a biology major in college and has trouble letting go of evolutionary theory. Many people think they cannot be Christians unless they believe in a young earth or that they have to abandon their understanding of science in order to conform to what they see in other Christians. Another example could be doctrinal stumbling blocks in regards to the nature of hell or God's seemingly harsh actions in the Old Testament. Also, many seekers may feel pressured to have to join certain political affiliations that are commonly Christian in nature. I know a girl from a past Hindu background who goes to Bible studies all the time but she just has trouble reconciling the Bible's teachings on demons and the evil principalities and powers of the spiritual realm. She's seeking but she hasn't come to the place where she really recognizes the battle between good and evil that is so prominent in the Scriptures. I might argue that she might be able to be a Christian without believing there is a devil, at first, but eventually she will have to come around to seeing things the right way because Jesus clearly taught on the existence of Satan. She's quite immature in her knowledge, but she is still seeking. Could she continue in her spiritual progress without believing in the demonic realm? Obviously it wouldn't be good for her to believe something that is not true, but why should that stumble her from continuing the process of seeking?

I guess my main point was that sometimes seekers could really have a desire to follow Jesus and may even enjoy participating in the affairs of the Church, before actually being brought into the spiritual family in Christ. I think of the many people who followed Jesus because they enjoyed His teachings, or because they saw His miracles, or because He fed them. They weren't completely sincere disciples, but they believed in Him and recognized there was something special about Him. Oftentimes in the Gospels we read that 'multitudes believed in Him' or that 'word of mouth about Jesus went through entire geographical areas'. I think of the multitudes of people who followed Jesus but didn't end up making a complete surrender to His lordship yet, specifically due to the extremely small number of dedicated disciples at the time of Pentecost (120 members, Acts 1:15). What happened to all of those seekers, the multitudes who followed Him during His time on earth? One may argue many left Him in John chapter 6 due to His difficult teachings, or that they dispersed after the crucifixion. Perhaps many of the people who later became part of the body of Christ were people who initially heard Jesus teach or saw Him work miracles before the cross.

I see a type of parallel in the growing emergent church community. The emergent churches tend to find these kinds of seekers, and the seekers are not as afraid of being a part of their communities due to their welcoming attitudes and patience in regards to people coming to that full surrender. They engage in discussion and debates, and wait for these seekers to come to Christ in their own time rather than forcing some immediate decision upon them, or trying to convince them immediately to think exactly like them... like many evangelistic methods are today (make a decision now, say this prayer, join our church, etc.). Whatever the case may be, it just seems that sometimes seekers may be turned off by popular Christianity even though they have a sincere longing for truth and spiritual experience and enlightenment, although they have not yet been regenerated or understand certain things correctly yet. They prove by their affiliation with Christian activities and their open-mindedness to conversing about the things of God that they are much closer to Christ than many nonbelievers, although they have not yet become "true" and "wholeheartedly committed" disciples and have not yet been truly born of the Spirit.