Paul., Jesus, Lord & Yahweh

[Homer]

In an article in "The Dictionary of Paul" on "Lord" there are said to be several references in the New Testament that quote Old Testament passages that referred to Yahweh and apply them to Jesus. An interesting idea I had never considered:

Romans 10:8-13
8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart”—that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, 9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes in Him will not be disappointed.” 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him; 13 for “Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

Joel 2:32
New American Standard Bible 1995
32 “And it will come about that whoever calls on the name of the Lord
Will be delivered;

1 Corinthians 1:28-31
New American Standard Bible 1995
28 and the base things of the world and the despised God has chosen, the things that are not, so that He may nullify the things that are, 29 so that no man may boast before God. 30 But by His doing you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption, 31 so that, just as it is written, “Let him who boasts, boast in the Lord.”

Jeremiah 9:23-24
New American Standard Bible 1995
23 Thus says the Lord, “Let not a wise man boast of his wisdom, and let not the mighty man boast of his might, let not a rich man boast of his riches; 24 but let him who boasts boast of this, that he understands and knows Me, that I am the Lord who exercises lovingkindness, justice and righteousness on earth; for I delight in these things,” declares the Lord.

[darinhouston]

Romans 10:8-13
8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart”—that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, 9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes in Him will not be disappointed.” 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him; 13 for “Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

These come up often. I honestly don't understand how this seems to be so convincing to many (and it does seem to convince many). Clearly it's the type of passage that one should struggle with -- though I guess it's in the eye of the beholder, but I don't see this in any way suggesting an equality between Yahweh and Jesus. In the Romans 10 passage, as just an example, this seems to me to be a recognition of the Old vs New Covenant lordship. In the OT, all they could do was to call on the name of Yahweh, as Lord. Now, we access Yahweh through Jesus of whom Yahweh made Lord. So, calling on the Lord in the Old Testament meant calling on Yahweh. Calling on the Lord in the New Testament means calling on the name of Jesus. That doesn't mean they're the same person or even that they're both God - only that they're both Lords (a position of authority not a name).

For a crude analogy, you could be told to ask your boss for a raise - if it previously was a sole proprietorship, that would have meant one guy - if he then hired a manager, then that would mean the new guy.

[dwight92070]

Romans 10:8-13
8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart”—that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, 9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes in Him will not be disappointed.” 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him; 13 for “Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

These come up often. I honestly don't understand how this seems to be so convincing to many (and it does seem to convince many). Clearly it's the type of passage that one should struggle with -- though I guess it's in the eye of the beholder, but I don't see this in any way suggesting an equality between Yahweh and Jesus. In the Romans 10 passage, as just an example, this seems to me to be a recognition of the Old vs New Covenant lordship. In the OT, all they could do was to call on the name of Yahweh, as Lord. Now, we access Yahweh through Jesus of whom Yahweh made Lord. So, calling on the Lord in the Old Testament meant calling on Yahweh. Calling on the Lord in the New Testament means calling on the name of Jesus. That doesn't mean they're the same person or even that they're both God - only that they're both Lords (a position of authority not a name).

For a crude analogy, you could be told to ask your boss for a raise - if it previously was a sole proprietorship, that would have meant one guy - if he then hired a manager, then that would mean the new guy.

"The Lord" in the Old Testament is more than just a position of authority - It always refers to God, so it, in essence, is one of God's names in the Old Testament. There were many called "lord", but ONLY ONE "The Lord".

Isaiah 45:5 confirms this: "I am the LORD, and there is no other; ..."
Isaiah 45:6 also says: "I am the LORD, and there is no other, ..."
Isaiah 43:11: "I, even I, am the LORD, and there is no savior besides Me."

"The Lord" in the New Testament also, is more than just a position of authority. It always refers to the Father, God, or the Son, Jesus. Since "The Lord" ONLY refers to the Father or the Son in the New Testament, it too is one of the Father's names and one of the Son's names.

No other person of authority, past, present, or future can rightfully call themselves "The Lord".

The Jews ALWAYS KNEW who "The LORD" referred to - God. So when Jesus' arrival is announced in the New Testament by an angel appearing to shepherds at night - " ...today in the city of David there has been born for you a Savior, who is Christ THE LORD", the shepherds heard the angel call Jesus the same name as they called God, THE LORD. In fact, they referred to God as THE LORD in Luke 2:15 before they went into Bethlehem: "... Let us go straight to Bethlehem then, and see this thing that has happened which THE LORD has made known to us."

The shepherds may not have fully understood what they heard, but let's not forget: It was an angel from God who called Jesus THE LORD.

In Luke 1:43 we see Elizabeth prophesying by the the Holy Spirit: "And how has it happened to me, that the mother of my LORD would come to me?

In Luke 1:46 Mary is prophesying, again by the Holy Spirit: "My soul exalts THE LORD, and my spirit has rejoiced in God my Savior." She knew the angels had told the shepherds that Jesus was not only "a Savior", but "THE LORD".

You said "that they're both Lords", as if there were many, but the scriptural truth is that they are both "THE LORD" - GOD.

You have referred us many times to Paul telling us that "there is only ONE LORD." Yet the Father is called "The Lord" AND Jesus is called "The Lord". They have to be ONE and the same.

[darinhouston]

Most if not all of these OT passages above actually don't say Lord in the original text. They unequivocally say Yahweh - the NT passages do not. It is not by accident that no passage refers unequivocally to Jesus with the word Yahweh. He is the Lord - made such by Yahweh. His authority is lordship. We call on Yahweh by means of calling on the name of Jesus. That does NOT mean they are the same person. This is simply the gospel message - we corrupt/distort it by merely saying Jesus is Yahweh. The Bible does not tell us this even if it might end up being true. We can twist and interpret things to support it, but the agency and exemplar derivative authority of Christ due to his obedience and special birth is lost if we merely say God put on a costume and came to earth to show us what He Himself can do - sorry suckers, you're humans - but I'll do it... That would be like going out and showing a 5 year old how easy it is to dunk on a toddler's basketball goal - even with our arms tied behind our backs. While trinitarians seem to think this elevates Jesus - I think it actually denigrates who he is and what he did. And the sacrifice of a father truly offering his son.

[dizerner]

derivative authority of Christ due to his obedience and special birth is lost if we merely say God put on a costume and came to earth to show us what He Himself can do - sorry suckers, you're humans - but I'll do it... That would be like going out and showing a 5 year old how easy it is to dunk on a toddler's basketball goal - even with our arms tied behind our backs.

So... if God shows he can do something we can't by "dunking" on us, then it loses all meaning and sacrifice. Do you even realize how self-righteous that sounds? The devil's original lie was "You shall be like God."

Hey, if we lower Jesus to a human like us and say he was a superstar, then we can see ourselves becoming superstars too, in our own goodness. Instead of, you know, trust God to do what we can't like a 5 year old would.

I'll let Jesus dunk for me, and I'll trust my whole eternity and salvation on Jesus' dunk.

Thank you very much.

While trinitarians seem to think this elevates Jesus - I think it actually denigrates who he is and what he did. And the sacrifice of a father truly offering his son.

It does no such thing.

Our sin nature just loves the idea of "earning" and "achieving" and producing that glory and purity and righteousness by our own goodness and efforts.

If Jesus is God and did it all for us, than all our righteousness is like menstrual rags, and that is insulting to our pride.

God doing for us what we can't do—doesn't mean it was easy or didn't hurt, he bore his own wrath against our sins.


And without trusting in that, we will have to face God's wrath ourselves, for our own righteousness will just never cut it.

Even if we take the name "Jesus" and try so hard to be like him, but refuse to trust in his grace—hell awaits.

[darinhouston]

Jesus had the power of the Holy Spirit and the guidance of the Father, but do you seriously think his lordship wasn't as a direct result of his obedience unto death? Call it what you want, but his life wasn't a "puppet show."