The Person of the Holy Spirit

[Homer]

Often the argument on the person of the Holy Spirit revolves around the use of personal pronouns. It would seem the use of these pronouns would be strong enough evidence; after considerable study I have concluded that one little Greek word allon is convincing.

John 14:16:
New American Standard Bible 1995

16 I will ask the Father, and He will give you another (allon) Helper (paracleton), that He may be with you forever

That little Greek word allon, Strongs #243, means another of the same kind, the difference being numerical. If the Holy Spirit was of a different kind John should have used the Greek word heteron which refers to a difference in quality. The NT writers used allon some 160 times and in all cases the word refers to another of the same kind.

Additionally the Christ and Spirit are functionally similar. The following list is adapted from an article on Christology by Ben Witherington lll in the "Dictionary of Paul":

(All scriptures from NASB)

Our righteousness is in Christ:

Philippians 3:8-9
8. More than that, I count all things to be loss in view of the surpassing value of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them but rubbish so that I may gain Christ, 9 and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith,

And in the Holy Spirit:

Romans 14:17
17 for the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit.

Christ is our life:

Colossians 3:4
4 When Christ, who is our life, is revealed, then you also will be revealed with Him in glory.

And life comes through the Spirit:

Romans 8:11
11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.

We have hope in Christ:

1 Corinthians 15:19
19 If we have hoped in Christ in this life only, we are of all men most to be pitied.

And hope from the Spirit:

Galatians 6:8
8 For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.

And we have Joy in the Spirit:

Romans 14:17
17 for the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit.

And Rejoicing in the Lord:

Philippians 4:4
4 Rejoice in the Lord always; again I will say, rejoice!

And we have truth in Christ:

Romans 9:1
9 I am telling the truth in Christ, I am not lying, my conscience testifies with me in the Holy Spirit,

And by the Spirit we speak truth:

1 Corinthians 12:3-6
3 Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God says, “Jesus is accursed”; and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit.

We have fellowship with Christ:

1 Corinthians 1:9
9 God is faithful, through whom you were called into fellowship with His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.

And in the Spirit:

2 Corinthians 13:14

14 The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit, be with you all.

Sanctified in Christ

1 Corinthians 1:2
2 To the church of God which is at Corinth, to those who have been sanctified in Christ Jesus, saints by calling, with all who in every place call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, their Lord and ours:

Sanctified by the Holy Spirit

Romans 15:16
16 to be a minister of Christ Jesus to the Gentiles, ministering as a priest the gospel of God, so that my offering of the Gentiles may become acceptable, sanctified by the Holy Spirit.

Sealed in Christ
Ephesians 1:13
13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,

By the Holy Spirit

Ephesians 4:30
30 Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

Interestingly in 1John 2:1 Jesus is also referred to as paracleton:

1 John 2:1
2 My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous;

[dizerner]

nice post homer

[jeremiah]

Good afternoon Homer,

...That little Greek word allon, Strongs #243, means another of the same kind, the difference being numerical. If the Holy Spirit was of a different kind John should have used the Greek word heteron which refers to a difference in quality. The NT writers used allon some 160 times and in all cases the word refers to another of the same kind.
...

I really do struggle to see how this isn't simply a distinction without a difference. Of course the spirit of God is of the same kind as God, being from God himself, regardless of person hood or not.

Romans 14:17
17 for the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit.

Romans 8:11
11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.

Galatians 6:8
8 For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.

1 Corinthians 12:3-6
3 Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God says, “Jesus is accursed”; and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit.

Ephesians 4:30
30 Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

Romans 15:16
16 to be a minister of Christ Jesus to the Gentiles, ministering as a priest the gospel of God, so that my offering of the Gentiles may become acceptable, sanctified by the Holy Spirit.

These can all be so without the holy spirit being a person, can they not?

By the way, I am open to the holy spirit having personhood, i'm just not persuaded the scriptural authors intended I understand God's spirit that way. Please don't hear my words as adversarial.

I hope everyone is having a great Sunday, and thank you Jarrod for getting the forum back up and running.

[Homer]

Jeremiah,

John 14:16:
New American Standard Bible 1995

16 I will ask the Father, and He will give you another (allon) Helper (paracleton), that He may be with you forever

When Jesus says the Father will give you another paracleton this strongly implies that Jesus was, Himself, prior to the coming of the Holy Spirit, also paracleton, as is stated in 1: john 2:1 He continues to be in heaven.

I have looked at all 160 instances of the use of the Greek word allon in the NT and it is difficult to contradict the source who commented that "all uses in the NT have the meaning of another of another of the same kind". it is hard for me to see that the "another of the same kind" could mean a person and an impersonal force or power.

Be blessed, Homer

[dizerner]

Regardless of personhood?

God is a Person, it would not be the same kind.

[dwight92070]

Good afternoon Homer,

...That little Greek word allon, Strongs #243, means another of the same kind, the difference being numerical. If the Holy Spirit was of a different kind John should have used the Greek word heteron which refers to a difference in quality. The NT writers used allon some 160 times and in all cases the word refers to another of the same kind.
...

I really do struggle to see how this isn't simply a distinction without a difference. Of course the spirit of God is of the same kind as God, being from God himself, regardless of person hood or not.

Romans 14:17
17 for the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit.

Romans 8:11
11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.

Galatians 6:8
8 For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.

1 Corinthians 12:3-6
3 Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God says, “Jesus is accursed”; and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit.

Ephesians 4:30
30 Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

Romans 15:16
16 to be a minister of Christ Jesus to the Gentiles, ministering as a priest the gospel of God, so that my offering of the Gentiles may become acceptable, sanctified by the Holy Spirit.

These can all be so without the holy spirit being a person, can they not?

Dwight - No, actually they cannot. How can you obtain righteousness, peace, and joy from something other than a person? You might experience a temporary peace and joy from let's say, a pet dog. But you'll never get righteousness from a pet. In fact, you can only get righteousness from one source - Jesus - also true peace and joy. So if the kingdom of God is righteousness, peace, and joy in the Holy Spirit, then righteousness, peace and joy are actually JESUS in the Holy Spirit - and Jesus is definitely a person. In short, the kingdom of God is Jesus indwelt by the Holy Spirit. For Jesus to be indwelt by anything other than a person, would be at least, an insult, and at worst, blasphemy, since He Himself is the ONLY person Who is God.

Dwight - How can you grieve a non-person? How can a non-person sanctify you? How can it be that a non-person would know the difference between "Jesus is accursed" and "Jesus is Lord", since a non-person has no mind, at least not equal intelligence that even approaches that of a person? How is it possible to lie to a non-person? Acts 5:3

Dwight - How can we, as persons, have fellowship with a non-person? 2 Corinthians 13:14 And the Father and the Son (both being persons) at the same time?
Dwight - So no, none of the above listed verses work for a non-person, and especially so if the Holy Spirit is that non-person.

By the way, I am open to the holy spirit having personhood, i'm just not persuaded the scriptural authors intended I understand God's spirit that way. Please don't hear my words as adversarial.

I hope everyone is having a great Sunday, and thank you Jarrod for getting the forum back up and running.

[jeremiah]

Hi dizerner,

Regardless of personhood?

God is a Person, it would not be the same kind.

I can't make much sense of what you wrote. Are you suggesting the only outcome by which we can say the holy Spirit is of the same kind as God, is if the Spirit retains God's personhood? If so, or else, can you elaborate what you mean please?

[jeremiah]

Hi Dwight,

No, actually they cannot. How can you obtain righteousness, peace, and joy from something other than a person?...

The apostle(s) do not say we "obtain" these from the holy Spirit, but these are in the holy Spirit. They are easily understood as coming from God himself.

How can you grieve a non-person? How can a non-person sanctify you? How can it be that a non-person would know the difference between "Jesus is accursed" and "Jesus is Lord", since a non-person has no mind, at least not equal intelligence that even approaches that of a person? How is it possible to lie to a non-person? Acts 5:3

If Jesus and the apostles never intended us to understand the holy Spirit as a third person of the godhead, then there is no problem speaking this way and meaning to communicate God himself is the one being grieved, performing the sanctification, being the one by whom we say Jesus is Lord, or without whom some may say Jesus is accursed, and as Peter told Ananias, he had not lied to men but to God.

I do not say those verses that Homer listed must be understood with the holy Spirit being a "non person", only that I think they are understandable still without presupposing, or concluding the God's spirit is presented as a third person of the godhead.

[dizerner]

Hi dizerner,

Regardless of personhood?

God is a Person, it would not be the same kind.

I can't make much sense of what you wrote. Are you suggesting the only outcome by which we can say the holy Spirit is of the same kind as God, is if the Spirit retains God's personhood? If so, or else, can you elaborate what you mean please?

Apparently you CAN make sense of it.

Or you got really, really lucky.

[dizerner]

For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God. (1 Cor. 2:11 NKJ)

Impersonal forces don't "know" things.

the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you. (Jn. 14:17 NKJ)