The Trinity and the Old Testament

God, Christ, & The Holy Spirit
User avatar
Homer
Posts: 2995
Joined: Sat Aug 23, 2008 11:08 pm

The Trinity and the Old Testament

Post by Homer » Mon Aug 10, 2015 9:30 am

It seems to me any paradigm of The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit must be compatible with what the Old Testament says. Consider the following, only a sample of affirmations that there is only one God:

Deuteronomy 4:35 (NASB)

35. To you it was shown that you might know that the Lord, He is God; there is no other besides Him.

2 Samuel 7:22 (NASB)

22. For this reason You are great, O Lord God; for there is none like You, and there is no God besides You, according to all that we have heard with our ears.

Isaiah 43:10 (NASB)

10.“You are My witnesses,” declares the Lord,
“And My servant whom I have chosen,
So that you may know and believe Me
And understand that I am He.
Before Me there was no God formed,
And there will be none after Me.

Isaiah 44:6 (NASB)

6. “Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the Lord of hosts:
‘I am the first and I am the last,
And there is no God besides Me.

Isaiah 45:5 (NASB)

5.“I am the Lord, and there is no other;
Besides Me there is no God.
I will gird you, though you have not known Me;


The Old Testament appears to affirm that neither is there any other God, but there isn't even any other like God. And, as JR pointed out, there is only One who is Lord and Saviour. I can not see how the "eternal son-ship" idea fits with what the OT affirms about God. On the other hand, some sort of Trinitarian idea does seem to work if we simply hold to John's teaching that the pre-incarnate Christ was the word, and the idea the Angel of the Lord being Christ, and so forth.

Still seeking answers.

dizerner

Re: The Trinity and the Old Testament

Post by dizerner » Mon Aug 10, 2015 10:07 am

I think Eternal Sonship is a different question than the Trinity in the OT and the two shouldn't be conflated.

Eternal Sonship is based on some ideas about the relationship and what it means to be God. We take some basic ideas:

1. There was no moment when the Son was not.
2. The Son derives being from the Father.
3. The hierarchy of the Trinity was established from eternity and voluntarily.

When we take these assumptions and apply it, we get Eternal Sonship, then we see if there is any contradicting/supporting verses for the ideas. We see, that the term "the Word" is applied to Jesus before, during and after his incarnation, and so there is no reason to assume it is a special pre-incarnate status. We also see the term Son having application not just for Jesus' humanity. Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today and forever and before Abraham was, he is, his goings forth are "from eternity." Even in the passage speaking of his begetting he is called Son before he is begotten. In the preexisting state however Christ was generated exactly as the Spirit was, so in that sense, the Son may have only had special application in the foreknowledge of his role. There seems to be a lot of wild speculation about "the lamb slain before the foundation of the world" but there seems to be good reason to conclude that is a faulty reading of the text. So we do see a specific moment in time that Christ seems to be fundamentally changed in some way, although we'd argue not losing his Divinity as in Kenotic Theology. Christ had three begettings, his eternal generation, his incarnation and his resurrection. How each one affected him, is a mysterious and complicated matter. Perhaps we sense the term Son is so intricately interwoven with his incarnation and humanity that we feel it cannot be seemlessly torn asunder for his preexistent state. After all, if the Spirit is also eternally generated as the feminine Wisdom of God, why isn't the Spirit called a child of God in some way? Yet there's not a hint of it, so that we'd assume without the incarnation the Son would, although generated, not share this peculiar familial trait. We do get a picture of Christ's prexistence as "leaving father and mother" to come into this world, which suggests a similar relationship prior. We also don't get any sense of Christ ever not having the relationship of Son he currently has ("last of all he sent his Son... or what would be become his Son but was just his Word?"). And Christ specifically says he didn't come of his own will, and wasn't doing his own will, and that seems peculiar if his status in relationship had significantly changed along with his nature becoming created, since he was sharing the Father's glory face to face in the Father's embrace. Like "prevenient grace" this seems a term that is not often deeply delved into, and thus leaves more room for misunderstanding.

My own take: as best as I can tell, it seems to match the Biblical paradigm, without in any way making Christ "less" equal in substance or status, but only in rank.

User avatar
Paidion
Posts: 5452
Joined: Mon Aug 18, 2008 10:22 pm
Location: Back Woods of North-Western Ontario

Re: The Trinity and the Old Testament

Post by Paidion » Mon Aug 10, 2015 11:48 am

Dizerner wrote:Eternal Sonship is based on some ideas about the relationship and what it means to be God. We take some basic ideas:
1. There was no moment when the Son was not.
2. The Son derives being from the Father.
3. The hierarchy of the Trinity was established from eternity and voluntarily.
#1 and #2 are the teachings of first and second century Christianity.
#3—not.
Homer wrote:It seems to me any paradigm of The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit must be compatible with what the Old Testament says. Consider the following, only a sample of affirmations that there is only one God:
Yes, the writers of the OT state that Yahweh is one and there is no other God. Jesus also addressed the Father as "the only true God" (John 17:3).

Also in the OT, the Father and the Son share the name "Yahweh." In Genesis 19 there is One on earth that is addressed by Abraham as "Yahweh." In verse 24, there is One in Heaven called "Yahweh", who through the One on earth, rains sulphur and fire upon Sodom and Gomorrah. Two divine Individuals called "Yahweh"!—One in heaven from whom comes the sulphur and fire, and One on earth through whom the sulphur and fire comes.

The divine Individual on earth who was called "Yahweh" is the Son of God, One who was generated by God, and is therefore divine and may be called "God" though He is not "the only true God." It is still the case that Yahweh is one, and there is no other. Jesus said that He and the Father are One. They are One because Jesus is the exact image of the Father's essence (Heb 1:3). This may be compared to looking at two different photo prints made from the same negative. We might say that the two are "the same picture", and yet they are two individual pictures. Thus the Father and the Son are "the same God" in the sense of sharing all attributes, but yet are two Individuals. In John 17:3, Jesus indicated that lasting life is "knowing You, the only true God AND Jesus Christ whom You have sent." In saying this, Jesus distinguished Himself from the Father, indicating that He was a different Individual from the Father.
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.

User avatar
Homer
Posts: 2995
Joined: Sat Aug 23, 2008 11:08 pm

Re: The Trinity and the Old Testament

Post by Homer » Mon Aug 10, 2015 2:23 pm

Hi Paidion,

You wrote:
Jesus said that He and the Father are One. They are One because Jesus is the exact image of the Father's essence (Heb 1:3).
Yet the OT affirms that there is no one like Him.

User avatar
TheEditor
Posts: 814
Joined: Thu Sep 16, 2010 9:09 pm

Re: The Trinity and the Old Testament

Post by TheEditor » Mon Aug 10, 2015 9:30 pm

I wonder if it's fair to read the OT's statements regarding the uniqueness of Jehovah (Yahweh if you prefer) without taking into consideration the rampant Baal/calf worship that was ubiquitous, along with the Israelites repeated lapse into idolatry, what with the high places and sacred pillars, etc.? It seems that time and time again, Jehovah distinguished himself as "unique" amidst a condemnation of idol worship. Therefore, for myself, I cannot read these verses in a vacuum and see them as God preemptively invalidating any god-essence or uniqueness of his Son.

Regards, Brenden.
[color=#0000FF][b]"It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery."[/b][/color]

User avatar
21centpilgrim
Posts: 183
Joined: Fri Aug 22, 2008 11:17 pm

Re: The Trinity and the Old Testament

Post by 21centpilgrim » Tue Aug 11, 2015 12:10 pm

ps, 110 is substantial here.

The LORD says to my Lord:
“Sit at my right hand,
until I make your enemies your footstool.”

The Yĕhovah says to my 'Adonay or Adoni- some dispute here

If the Trinity had roots in the OT you would not have 'my 'Adonay/Adoni' you would have 'my Yĕhovah'.
Then those who feared the LORD spoke with each other, and the LORD listened to what they said. In his presence, a scroll of remembrance was written to record the names of those who feared him and loved to think about him.

User avatar
Paidion
Posts: 5452
Joined: Mon Aug 18, 2008 10:22 pm
Location: Back Woods of North-Western Ontario

Re: The Trinity and the Old Testament

Post by Paidion » Tue Aug 11, 2015 5:45 pm

Good point, 21¢
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.

dizerner

Re: The Trinity and the Old Testament

Post by dizerner » Tue Aug 11, 2015 6:55 pm

So if Jesus isn't called Yahweh that disproves the Trinity? :shock: Let's put some thought into our arguments...

Jose
Posts: 153
Joined: Sun Dec 21, 2014 1:42 pm

Re: The Trinity and the Old Testament

Post by Jose » Tue Aug 11, 2015 8:39 pm

The point is that this verse should not be used as a proof text for the Trinity in the Old Testament. The phrase "the Lord said to my Lord", is not saying that Yahweh spoke to Yahweh as many people presume. The Hebrew behind the first LORD is YHWH (God), and the Hebrew for the second Lord is adoni (usually a human master/lord).

User avatar
Homer
Posts: 2995
Joined: Sat Aug 23, 2008 11:08 pm

Re: The Trinity and the Old Testament

Post by Homer » Tue Aug 11, 2015 10:11 pm

But the very word He was called was used by the Hebrews as a substitute for Yahweh.

Post Reply

Return to “Theology Proper, Christology, Pneumatology”