Jesus has a God?

God, Christ, & The Holy Spirit
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21centpilgrim
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Jesus has a God?

Post by 21centpilgrim » Fri Jul 31, 2015 12:29 pm

Here are numerous passages about Jesus having a God. How do you explain this? Any thoughts are welcome


“He [Jesus] shall stand and feed in the strength of the Lord, in the majesty of the name of the Lord his God” (Micah 5:4).

“My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?” (Matt. 27:46).

“...I ascend unto my Father, and your Father: and to my God, and your God” (John 20:17). Jesus is saying in essence, “your God is my God.”

“Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ” (Eph.1:3).

“That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him” (Eph. 1:17).

“The God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ...knoweth that I lie not” (II Cor. 11:31).

“But unto the Son he saith...thy God hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness” (Heb. 1:8-9).

“Thou lovest righteousness...therefore God, thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness” (Psalm 45:7).

“Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ” (I Peter 1:3).

“He [Jesus] ... has made us a kingdom of priests to serve his God and Father” (Rev. 1:6 - NIV, NASB, NCV, Today’s English Version).

“He that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God...name of my God...city of my God...down out of heaven from my God” (Rev. 3:12).
Then those who feared the LORD spoke with each other, and the LORD listened to what they said. In his presence, a scroll of remembrance was written to record the names of those who feared him and loved to think about him.

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21centpilgrim
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Re: Jesus has a God?

Post by 21centpilgrim » Fri Jul 31, 2015 12:34 pm

And given the verses in Rev. that are mentioned, how do people have a problem, biblically, with eternal subordinationism?
Then those who feared the LORD spoke with each other, and the LORD listened to what they said. In his presence, a scroll of remembrance was written to record the names of those who feared him and loved to think about him.

dizerner

Re: Jesus has a God?

Post by dizerner » Fri Jul 31, 2015 2:56 pm

Trinitarianism affirms that Jesus is fully human, that is, an actual legitimate 100% human being as much as you or I. His Divine nature is there but recessive somehow. Scripture teaches that to function as Savior of humankind, because "the children share in flesh and blood, he himself likewise partook of the same things" so that "a body God prepared for him." This also goes along with eternal subordinationism, and the fact that their is hierarchy in the Trinity (just as male and female are equal in nature and value, but when married the husband is the head). Jesus did what no single human being ever could do and had eternal preexistence and also the status of Creator and upholding all things. Jesus was both fully God and fully man, and that is why he functions as Savior and Judge in his role. I do recommend studying the other threads they cover all of this much better.

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Paidion
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Re: Jesus has a God?

Post by Paidion » Fri Jul 31, 2015 6:33 pm

Jesus was the only-BEGOTTEN (or only-GENERATED) Son of God as is affirmed throughout the New Testament. To have been begotten or generated requires a begetter or generator. Indeed, John 1:18 in papyrus 66, the earliest known manuscript of the passage (about 150 A.D.) He is called "the only-begotten GOD." Second-century Christians said that He was "begotten before all ages." They said that His begetting was the FIRST act of the Father. Even the original Nicene Creed (325 A.D.) states that He was "begotten before all ages." At first, the Trinitarians accepted this. But later Trinitarians saw the inconsistency with their doctrine and changed the wording to "eternally begotten."

At no time was Jesus "fully human AND fully God." He was fully divine prior to His birth. But He divested Himself of His divine attributes and became FULLY human. The only thing He retained of His previous existence was His identity as the Son of God.

Think among yourselves that [thinking] which was also in Messiah Jesus, who coming forth in the form of God, did not consider equality with God a thing to be seized, but emptied Himself, taking the form of a slave, having been begotten in the likeness of human beings. (Philippians 2:5-7)

Notice he emptied Himself. Emptied Himself of His divine attibutes and took the form of a slave—fully human. While on earth He could do no miracles. Rather the Father performed these miracles THROUGH Him. He got hungry and thirsty like any other man. He was tempted in all ways such as the rest of mankind is tempted. Yet He overcame each and every time, and never sinned. If He had been a man/God hybrid, He could not have sinned, and thus the temptation by the devil would have been no temptation at all.

After His resurrection, God exalted Him. Doubtless He became divine again as He had been prior to His birth.

I agree with you, Dizerner, that positionally He was in second place to the Father, and your analogy with the relative positions of husband and wife in a Christian home is excellent, and is exactly what the apostle Paul taught—also that they are equally divine even as a husband and wife are equally human.
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

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dizerner

Re: Jesus has a God?

Post by dizerner » Fri Jul 31, 2015 6:55 pm

Paidion wrote:At no time was Jesus "fully human AND fully God." He was fully divine prior to His birth. But He divested Himself of His divine attributes and became FULLY human. The only thing He retained of His previous existence was His identity as the Son of God.
I was searching if this particular doctrine had a name, apparently it's called Kenosis or Kenotic doctrine/theology. Just for the purposes of information. In studying I found the Eutychianism particularly intriguing as a possible paradigm fit for Scripture, but I guess I'm not fully persuaded yet.
If He had been a man/God hybrid, He could not have sinned, and thus the temptation by the devil would have been no temptation at all.
So you think there was a percentage chance of Jesus sinning? Are we just really lucky Jesus managed to say "no"?

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TheEditor
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Re: Jesus has a God?

Post by TheEditor » Fri Jul 31, 2015 7:35 pm

I do recommend studying the other threads they cover all of this much better.


I doubt whether his reading of that particular thread will clear it up much better. I have asked the same questions repeatedly, and never received satisfactory answers, for the simple reason there are none--at least not for someone that wasn't weaned on the teaching. The doctrine is something that some Christians take on faith. I can accept that. What I reject is the notion that it can be codified in such a way, that anyone can grasp it, so that it becomes a touchstone of faith. This is patently false. I am not a Trinitarian. But I am not opposed to the trinity. I have as much problem with my non-Trinitarian friends saying that the trinity is the boogey-man of Christendom as I do the fundies that say if you aren't 'fer it' you will fry for all eternity. I say, have all the conversation you want about the doctrine, just don't expect to dislodge anyone from their paradigm, or lack of one. ;)

Regards, Brenden.
[color=#0000FF][b]"It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery."[/b][/color]

dizerner

Re: Jesus has a God?

Post by dizerner » Fri Jul 31, 2015 9:25 pm

TheEditor wrote:
I do recommend studying the other threads they cover all of this much better.


I doubt whether his reading of that particular thread will clear it up much better. I have asked the same questions repeatedly, and never received satisfactory answers, for the simple reason there are none--at least not for someone that wasn't weaned on the teaching. The doctrine is something that some Christians take on faith. I can accept that. What I reject is the notion that it can be codified in such a way, that anyone can grasp it, so that it becomes a touchstone of faith. This is patently false. I am not a Trinitarian. But I am not opposed to the trinity. I have as much problem with my non-Trinitarian friends saying that the trinity is the boogey-man of Christendom as I do the fundies that say if you aren't 'fer it' you will fry for all eternity. I say, have all the conversation you want about the doctrine, just don't expect to dislodge anyone from their paradigm, or lack of one. ;)

Regards, Brenden.
I don't share your pessimistic view. I was frankly, shocked, to see how much Trinitarian logic and verses there are in Scripture and I think everyone should at least take the time to look and think about it. The kind of attitude like "no one ever changes their mind" (easily dis-proven statistically) may illustrate the natural stubbornness of human nature but also it's natural pessimism. And the whole "I have never received satisfactory answers" thing really doesn't say much of anything, because we see time and time again no amount of evidence will satisfy some people. Paidion would probably say he "never received a satisfactory answer" that the blood of Jesus literally paid for our sins, yet there it stands plain in Scripture, and those of us who respect it bow to it. You simply seem to have met some really, really nasty Trinitarians and filter everything through that (no offense), and that's understandable. And the whole "take on faith" thing, seems kinda pointless since we take all Biblical doctrine on faith. And the "anyone can grasp it," well we see time and time again people not grasping other Biblical doctrines either. I don't mind criticisms, but let's stay fair here, that's all. I'm completely willing to try to answer any unanswered things on the Trinity thread if you can refresh my memory.

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Paidion
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Re: Jesus has a God?

Post by Paidion » Fri Jul 31, 2015 9:28 pm

Hi Dizerner,
You wrote:So you think there was a percentage chance of Jesus sinning? Are we just really lucky Jesus managed to say "no"?
Jesus could have sinned. If not, then the temptation was a farce; He wasn't actually tempted at all. Satan certainly thought He could have given in to his tempations, or else he wouldn't have tried it. (Of course, Satan's opinions are no proof).

As for Jesus saying, "No," it wasn't a matter of luck; it was a matter of choice. Jesus always chose to obey His heavenly Father.
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.

dizerner

Re: Jesus has a God?

Post by dizerner » Fri Jul 31, 2015 9:34 pm

Well, we've been over it. I agree in a technical way that the possibility of sin was an option for Jesus, but I don't think under any circumstances Jesus would actually sin, since he is complete perfection and Divine.

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robbyyoung
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Re: Jesus has a God?

Post by robbyyoung » Fri Jul 31, 2015 10:16 pm

If prophecy means anything, "The Messiah" was NEVER prophesied to FAIL, and sinning would be FAILURE. As far as I know, ALL the prophecies regarding The Messiah was etched in complete success in His mission, no hint of failure. The proverbial "could have" angle is argumentation against God being 100% accurate in His successful decrees regrading His Messiah. IMHO, these "could have" statements serve no purpose against what God said would come to pass.

God Bless.

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