What is the foundation of the church?

God, Christ, & The Holy Spirit
dizerner

Re: What is the foundation of the church?

Post by dizerner » Tue Jul 28, 2015 11:05 pm

Jesus is the unique only begotten Son of the living God, He is the Messiah, the promised seed of Abraham and of Mary, He is born of a virgin and declared multiple times from the Father above as His beloved Son.
Woah, woah, woah, you just implied Peter's confession is all we need to know about Jesus. Where do you get off adding all that extra stuff in going beyond what is written in that verse?

Did you know Muslims believe Jesus is a son of God too? And you and I are sons of God? See, I don't see how you can make your point at all when even to explain Unitarian Chtistianity you can't just let the passage stand as self-explanatory.

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steve
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Re: What is the foundation of the church?

Post by steve » Tue Jul 28, 2015 11:38 pm

Woah, woah, woah, you just implied Peter's confession is all we need to know about Jesus. Where do you get off adding all that extra stuff in going beyond what is written in that verse?

Did you know Muslims believe Jesus is a son of God too? And you and I are sons of God? See, I don't see how you can make your point at all when even to explain Unitarian Chtistianity you can't just let the passage stand as self-explanatory.

First, 21centpilgrim did not describe Unitarian Christianity (and I don't believe Muslims would allow that Jesus, us, or anyone else are "sons" of God. This is a great sticking point alienating them from Christianity: "Allah has no consorts, so Allah has no sons").

Second, most of the things contained in your citation of 21centpilgrim's post (apart from the virgin Mary part) are, in fact, implied in the very wording of Peter's statement.

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21centpilgrim
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Re: What is the foundation of the church?

Post by 21centpilgrim » Tue Jul 28, 2015 11:51 pm

dizerner,
you asked me-
How do you view the "Son of God" as a distinct and special office
I then answered.

Jesus said that He would build his church upon something and because of so doing, the gates of hell would not prevail against it.

I think that is a great promise, but if you are trying to ask me a leading question and then jump on me after I answer to play- gotcha- and Muslims and the Unitarian card, I don't see how you are really interested in this passage. If you are trying to make a bigger point then please do so.

grace and peace
Then those who feared the LORD spoke with each other, and the LORD listened to what they said. In his presence, a scroll of remembrance was written to record the names of those who feared him and loved to think about him.

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Paidion
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Re: What is the foundation of the church?

Post by Paidion » Wed Jul 29, 2015 11:23 am

Well, that's all very nice to say but how would you even know it without Scripture... it does seem odd that you are using Scripture to say Scripture is not our foundation. Why not just say what some currently say, throw out the Bible since we can all be led directly by the Spirit. No, I say the Bible tells what those prophets and apostles and Christ said and who they were.
Dizerner, you're not making sense. It's true that if I didn't have copies of the letters of Paul, I wouldn't have been able to quote from it. But that is not tantamount to saying that "Scripture" must be the foundation of the church. Paul clearly said that the apostles and prophets were the foundation with Christ being the chief corner stone.

I have no desire whatever to "throw out the Bible." So why should I recommend doing so? Simply because I don't accept the idea that the Bible is the foundation of the Church? The memoirs of Christ (Matt, Mark, Luke, and John) are the only records we have of what Jesus did and taught. They are historical records. That's why they are inconsistent with each other at places. If they were in perfect harmony, one would suspect that they would NOT be historical records, but rather contrived. Not only do I not "throw out the Bible," but I do not throw out Clement's letter to the Corinthians, written shortly after Paul and Peter's death (Clement was Paul's fellow labourer in the gospel). Nor do I "throw out" Justin Martyr's writings or those of Irenæus. I do, however, "throw out" the letters purported to be those of Ignatius. There's clearly something wrong with them—something major. Ignatius lived from 30 to 107 A.D. but these writings contain much that belongs to a later age. Some of the experts believe that all of them are forgeries.I am inclined to that view. Either that or they are HEAVILY interpolated. Virtually all commentators affirm that at least eight of them are spurious.
Paidion

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dizerner

Re: What is the foundation of the church?

Post by dizerner » Wed Jul 29, 2015 5:22 pm

What I said makes perfect sense. You used a Scripture verse to tell us that Scripture is not the foundation. If that's not circular what is.

..... anyway back to the topic. I have no problem with saying the second person of the Trinity is the rock and foundation of the church. Image Because Peter at that time limited his description to "Christ, Son of the Living God," and Christ affirmed that statement, doesn't really prove that's all we can know about Christ. You could argue it's all we need to know to be saved, and I've always said a person need not understand the Trinity to be saved (unlike some Trinitarians).

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Paidion
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Re: What is the foundation of the church?

Post by Paidion » Wed Jul 29, 2015 6:20 pm

What I said makes perfect sense. You used a Scripture verse to tell us that Scripture is not the foundation. If that's not circular what is.
No way is it circular. Since you maintain that it is, try to demonstrate it logically.

Here is an analogy. Suppose you say that the foundation of my house is paper, whereas, I affirm that the is concrete. However, if I show you a paper from the builder that states my foundation is concrete, you accuse me of circular reasoning because I accept what is written on paper. Then you say that I might as well "throw away" the builder's paper, since if I don't accept that the foundation of my house is paper, this paper cannot be trusted.
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

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21centpilgrim
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Re: What is the foundation of the church?

Post by 21centpilgrim » Wed Jul 29, 2015 7:17 pm

dizerner, could I interact with you about what you said
Peter at that time limited his description to "Christ, Son of the Living God," and Christ affirmed that statement, doesn't really prove that's all we can know about Christ.
The problem with your statement, as I see it, is that Peter was not choosing to limit his description of who Jesus is. Peter's description of Jesus was revealed to him by the Father and Peter held nothing back. It was sufficient for Jesus to affirm it as a correct understanding of Him as the foundation upon which the church would be built and stand against the gates of hell. I am glad that you do not espouse that the doctrine of the Trinity must be understood to be saved, do you think one does not need to affirm the Trinity to be saved either?

Thanks

Oh and I made an error earlier- I said that Jesus was the promised seed of Abraham and of Mary- it should have said Eve instead of Mary. Was typing fast on break at work.
Then those who feared the LORD spoke with each other, and the LORD listened to what they said. In his presence, a scroll of remembrance was written to record the names of those who feared him and loved to think about him.

Singalphile
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Re: What is the foundation of the church?

Post by Singalphile » Wed Jul 29, 2015 10:03 pm

Because of the emphasis on Peter (aka, Simon), the word-play (Petros/petra), the statement about giving "you"/Peter the keys to the kingdom, and the other passages that name the apostles as foundations of the Church, I prefer the 4th possibility that Steve mentioned:

4) Peter is the rock, either as an individual, or (more likely) as one of the apostles, since the apostles are identified with the foundation in Ephesians 2:20 and Revelation 21:14).

But the other explanations could also be part of what Jesus meant.
... that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. John 5:23

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Homer
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Re: What is the foundation of the church?

Post by Homer » Wed Jul 29, 2015 10:10 pm

So what were the keys and when did Peter use them? IMO the gospel preached on Pentecost. Other ideas?

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TheEditor
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Re: What is the foundation of the church?

Post by TheEditor » Thu Jul 30, 2015 12:16 am

Hi Homer,

I always took the "keys" to being Peter's use of bringing the Gospel to the Jews, Samaritans and the Gentiles (Cornelius); as if he "unlocked" the kingdom of Heaven. That's my opinion anyway.

Regards, Brenden.
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