The Trinity and Light
Re: The Trinity and Light
When thinking on the Trinity I think we will have much difficulty if we try and define it or define God. I see it as a legalistic approach where we try to define rather than come to know. If I say I am my head and my heart what have I said? Did I say I am my thoughts and my feelings or that I need my head and my heart or I will die? I can not define me much less God.
I like the approach where we try to come to know God by understanding how we experience him. I believe that is a useful tool. I think another useful tool is how does God experience his creation?
God the Father is omnipresent. This doesn't mean that he can teleport from place to place when he so chooses but rather he experiences all places at once for all is within him. Presence does not just apply to the 3 dimensions of location but also includes time. This is why when the Bible speaks of God the Father it uses the present tense even when it seems odd grammatically. He is all knowing and therefore knows what we would do in different circumstances. This is why he treats us all differently because he knows what we need and how to reach us. It is the reason his outreach to some may seem uneven. It is why he sought Saul/Paul when Saul was not seeking him. He knew the beautiful result.
God also has the ability to experience time and location in a linear fashion. To focus on a thought or a Word and this is how he spoke creation into the Father. This is how he experienced wrestling with Jacob. His ability to linearly experience time and location as we do came to earth in the flesh of Jesus. He gave up his direct connection to the Father during this time and only had his Holy Spirit to commune with the Father as we do. He took on the temptations of the flesh and over came them.
The Holy Spirit is how God experiences the world through his human creations. He gets to see what we see, feel what we feel, and also feel what we should have felt. When we give up our will and walk in the Holy Spirit, God gets to interact with his creation. To love and care for his creation and in so doing we too get to experience that which builds our character and makes us more like God.
I am interested in thoughts from others on this matter.
I like the approach where we try to come to know God by understanding how we experience him. I believe that is a useful tool. I think another useful tool is how does God experience his creation?
God the Father is omnipresent. This doesn't mean that he can teleport from place to place when he so chooses but rather he experiences all places at once for all is within him. Presence does not just apply to the 3 dimensions of location but also includes time. This is why when the Bible speaks of God the Father it uses the present tense even when it seems odd grammatically. He is all knowing and therefore knows what we would do in different circumstances. This is why he treats us all differently because he knows what we need and how to reach us. It is the reason his outreach to some may seem uneven. It is why he sought Saul/Paul when Saul was not seeking him. He knew the beautiful result.
God also has the ability to experience time and location in a linear fashion. To focus on a thought or a Word and this is how he spoke creation into the Father. This is how he experienced wrestling with Jacob. His ability to linearly experience time and location as we do came to earth in the flesh of Jesus. He gave up his direct connection to the Father during this time and only had his Holy Spirit to commune with the Father as we do. He took on the temptations of the flesh and over came them.
The Holy Spirit is how God experiences the world through his human creations. He gets to see what we see, feel what we feel, and also feel what we should have felt. When we give up our will and walk in the Holy Spirit, God gets to interact with his creation. To love and care for his creation and in so doing we too get to experience that which builds our character and makes us more like God.
I am interested in thoughts from others on this matter.
Re: The Trinity and Light
There are so many places in the scriptures where the Father, Son, and Spirit are said to do the same thing. The interchangeability is striking. For example:
John 10:17-18 (NASB)
17. For this reason the Father loves Me, because I lay down My life so that I may take it again. 18. No one has taken it away from Me, but I lay it down on My own initiative. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This commandment I received from My Father.”
So it can be said that Jesus, as part of the triune deity, raised Himself.
There are so many scriptures that lead to some sort of Trinitarian understanding that it seems the easiest to believe.
John 10:17-18 (NASB)
17. For this reason the Father loves Me, because I lay down My life so that I may take it again. 18. No one has taken it away from Me, but I lay it down on My own initiative. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This commandment I received from My Father.”
So it can be said that Jesus, as part of the triune deity, raised Himself.
There are so many scriptures that lead to some sort of Trinitarian understanding that it seems the easiest to believe.
Re: The Trinity and Light
I have not done the count, but I have read that singular personal pronouns are used in reference to God, whether by himself or by others, over 20,000 times in the Bible. A singular pronoun denotes one person only. In contrast to that, do you think that plural pronouns are used more exhaustively when referring to God? If you're talking about sheer quantity of verses, then to me it seems easier to believe that He is one. Deut 6:4Homer wrote: There are so many scriptures that lead to some sort of Trinitarian understanding that it seems the easiest to believe.
Re: The Trinity and Light
And neither do we speak of trinities. God, singular, could encompass the Trinity whereas "Father" would be singular and not speak of the Word/Son or Spirit.I have not done the count, but I have read that singular personal pronouns are used in reference to God, whether by himself or by others, over 20,000 times in the Bible. A singular pronoun denotes one person only. In contrast to that, do you think that plural pronouns are used more exhaustively when referring to God? If you're talking about sheer quantity of verses, then to me it seems easier to believe that He is one. Deut 6:4
The Trinity and Light
But in trinitarianism, God is indissolubly three, so it would be incorrect, and in fact misleading, when God (the trinity) said "I am He and there is no one else besides Me." It's easy to say that only the father can speak as a single being without reference to the others, but God is not only the father. In this case, using verses like the one above, the father would be saying "I am God, and there is no other God besides me." Doesn't this automatically exclude the Son and Spirit from being "one God?"Homer wrote:And neither do we speak of trinities. God, singular, could encompass the Trinity whereas "Father" would be singular and not speak of the Word/Son or Spirit.
Trinitarianism is that God is the trinity and therefore, in this paradigm, the trinity is improperly using singular pronouns when talking about "himself." (i.e. "themselves.")
Re: The Trinity and Light
I don't think it automatically excludes the Spirit and Son, and I grant that breaks the rules of grammar. If the Trinity can be considered One, and if they all share the same attributes, they call can say "I am he and there is no one else besides Me." That's how I view the Son and Spirit even if I acknowledge hierarchy among the Trinity. The Bible is free to call Jesus "Lord of Lords," even though he has a Lord, and technically that might seem inaccurate. Yet I see it as a Divine title nonetheless, because God is now his own God and Lord as well, and all on our behalf. And that's why Jesus submitting to the Father can be considered "God being all in all" even though Christ is right there in the mix.Jose wrote:But in trinitarianism, God is indissolubly three, so it would be incorrect, and in fact misleading, when God (the trinity) said "I am He and there is no one else besides Me." It's easy to say that only the father can speak as a single being without reference to the others, but God is not only the father. In this case, using verses like the one above, the father would be saying "I am God, and there is no other God besides me." Doesn't this automatically exclude the Son and Spirit from being "one God?"Homer wrote:And neither do we speak of trinities. God, singular, could encompass the Trinity whereas "Father" would be singular and not speak of the Word/Son or Spirit.
Trinitarianism is that God is the trinity and therefore, in this paradigm, the trinity is improperly using singular pronouns when talking about "himself." (i.e. "themselves.")
Bless.
Re: The Trinity and Light
Jose,
You wrote:
You wrote:
If the trinity is not true it would seem to exclude Jesus from being Emmanuel, or deity at all, for that matter. If you consider the belief that existed in the world at the time Isaiah wrote there were supposedly many Gods or deities. In that context there were no other deities according to Isaiah, thus without the Trinity the pre-incarnate Christ was............what?In this case, using verses like the one above, the father would be saying "I am God, and there is no other God besides me." Doesn't this automatically exclude the Son and Spirit from being "one God?"
Re: The Trinity and Light
By the time you get done listing everything the Bible says about Christ, he may as well be God. Everyone that cares about the text has to face that.Homer wrote: In that context there were no other deities according to Isaiah, thus without the Trinity the pre-incarnate Christ was............what?
Re: The Trinity and Light
I don't understand this reasoning. I don't equate the "Spirit of him" with the "Him" that is God the Father. The Spirit is not God the Father, but is the Spirit of God the Father. I see no relation to the idea of God raising Jesus without his Spirit.Dizerner wrote:...but the problem I have is this: if you don't equate the "Spirit of him" with the "him" then you have God raising Jesus without his Spirit.
He was the Son of God. He wasn't the Father. Jesus Himself addressed the Father as "the ONLY true God." (John 17:3). As the Son of God, the pre-incarnate Christ can be considered to be "God" (in the sense of being divine) but not in the sense of being "the only true God."Homer wrote:In that context there were no other deities according to Isaiah, thus without the Trinity the pre-incarnate Christ was............what?
Paidion
Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.
Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.
Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.
Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.
Re: The Trinity and Light
So you believe the Spirit didn't raise Jesus but the Spirit still is the one that gives life?