The Trinity and Light

God, Christ, & The Holy Spirit
dizerner

Re: The Trinity and Light

Post by dizerner » Wed Aug 05, 2015 4:27 pm

Agree the "him" is the Father in the phrase "Spirit of him," but the problem I have is this: if you don't equate the "Spirit of him" with the "him" then you have God raising Jesus without his Spirit. And if you think God's Spirit is the Father, than you think the Spirit of Christ is the Father, too. Do you think God raised Jesus without God's Spirit?

Jose
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Re: The Trinity and Light

Post by Jose » Wed Aug 05, 2015 5:08 pm

One of several definitions of "pneuma" says that it is "sometimes referred to in a way which emphasises his work and power." If one allows for this, then it is not difficult to see how "If the spirit (work and power) of Him, (the Father) who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He (the Father) who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit (his work and power) who dwells in you.

dizerner

Re: The Trinity and Light

Post by dizerner » Wed Aug 05, 2015 5:35 pm

Except the Spirit is given personal attributes and said to live in us. If we depersonalize the Spirit we contradict hundreds of scriptures.

Jose
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Re: The Trinity and Light

Post by Jose » Wed Aug 05, 2015 5:55 pm

dizerner wrote:Except the Spirit is given personal attributes and said to live in us. If we depersonalize the Spirit we contradict hundreds of scriptures.
I have not read where anyone has depersonalized the spirit. I, speaking for myself, made it a point to say that the spirit of God is very personal. Did you read that post? I would venture to guess that there are more scriptures that depict God's spirit as an intangible thing than there are that speak of it as a personal being. It is a gift to be given and received, it is poured out, it fills, it can be taken away, one can be anointed with it, it can be transferred by laying of hands, it blows and sounds like the wind, it lands on people in the form of fire and doves, etc . It's not all one sided and those attributes cannot be ignored. I'm saying that both are true. It is a PERSONAL PRESENCE AND POWER. Once again, the very fact that grammar allows, as you admit, and translations use "it" to refer to the spirit semi-proves it's qualities as a non being. In my opinion it would be offensive and dishonorable to call anyone "it", let alone God.

crgfstr1
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Re: The Trinity and Light

Post by crgfstr1 » Thu Aug 06, 2015 7:45 am

When thinking on the Trinity I think we will have much difficulty if we try and define it or define God. I see it as a legalistic approach where we try to define rather than come to know. If I say I am my head and my heart what have I said? Did I say I am my thoughts and my feelings or that I need my head and my heart or I will die? I can not define me much less God.

I like the approach where we try to come to know God by understanding how we experience him. I believe that is a useful tool. I think another useful tool is how does God experience his creation?

God the Father is omnipresent. This doesn't mean that he can teleport from place to place when he so chooses but rather he experiences all places at once for all is within him. Presence does not just apply to the 3 dimensions of location but also includes time. This is why when the Bible speaks of God the Father it uses the present tense even when it seems odd grammatically. He is all knowing and therefore knows what we would do in different circumstances. This is why he treats us all differently because he knows what we need and how to reach us. It is the reason his outreach to some may seem uneven. It is why he sought Saul/Paul when Saul was not seeking him. He knew the beautiful result.

God also has the ability to experience time and location in a linear fashion. To focus on a thought or a Word and this is how he spoke creation into the Father. This is how he experienced wrestling with Jacob. His ability to linearly experience time and location as we do came to earth in the flesh of Jesus. He gave up his direct connection to the Father during this time and only had his Holy Spirit to commune with the Father as we do. He took on the temptations of the flesh and over came them.

The Holy Spirit is how God experiences the world through his human creations. He gets to see what we see, feel what we feel, and also feel what we should have felt. When we give up our will and walk in the Holy Spirit, God gets to interact with his creation. To love and care for his creation and in so doing we too get to experience that which builds our character and makes us more like God.

I am interested in thoughts from others on this matter.

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Homer
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Re: The Trinity and Light

Post by Homer » Thu Aug 06, 2015 10:16 am

There are so many places in the scriptures where the Father, Son, and Spirit are said to do the same thing. The interchangeability is striking. For example:

John 10:17-18 (NASB)

17. For this reason the Father loves Me, because I lay down My life so that I may take it again. 18. No one has taken it away from Me, but I lay it down on My own initiative. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This commandment I received from My Father.”


So it can be said that Jesus, as part of the triune deity, raised Himself.

There are so many scriptures that lead to some sort of Trinitarian understanding that it seems the easiest to believe.

Jose
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Re: The Trinity and Light

Post by Jose » Thu Aug 06, 2015 3:22 pm

Homer wrote: There are so many scriptures that lead to some sort of Trinitarian understanding that it seems the easiest to believe.
I have not done the count, but I have read that singular personal pronouns are used in reference to God, whether by himself or by others, over 20,000 times in the Bible. A singular pronoun denotes one person only. In contrast to that, do you think that plural pronouns are used more exhaustively when referring to God? If you're talking about sheer quantity of verses, then to me it seems easier to believe that He is one. Deut 6:4

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Homer
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Re: The Trinity and Light

Post by Homer » Thu Aug 06, 2015 3:29 pm

I have not done the count, but I have read that singular personal pronouns are used in reference to God, whether by himself or by others, over 20,000 times in the Bible. A singular pronoun denotes one person only. In contrast to that, do you think that plural pronouns are used more exhaustively when referring to God? If you're talking about sheer quantity of verses, then to me it seems easier to believe that He is one. Deut 6:4
And neither do we speak of trinities. God, singular, could encompass the Trinity whereas "Father" would be singular and not speak of the Word/Son or Spirit.

Jose
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The Trinity and Light

Post by Jose » Thu Aug 06, 2015 4:00 pm

Homer wrote:And neither do we speak of trinities. God, singular, could encompass the Trinity whereas "Father" would be singular and not speak of the Word/Son or Spirit.
But in trinitarianism, God is indissolubly three, so it would be incorrect, and in fact misleading, when God (the trinity) said "I am He and there is no one else besides Me." It's easy to say that only the father can speak as a single being without reference to the others, but God is not only the father. In this case, using verses like the one above, the father would be saying "I am God, and there is no other God besides me." Doesn't this automatically exclude the Son and Spirit from being "one God?"

Trinitarianism is that God is the trinity and therefore, in this paradigm, the trinity is improperly using singular pronouns when talking about "himself." (i.e. "themselves.")

dizerner

Re: The Trinity and Light

Post by dizerner » Thu Aug 06, 2015 7:40 pm

Jose wrote:
Homer wrote:And neither do we speak of trinities. God, singular, could encompass the Trinity whereas "Father" would be singular and not speak of the Word/Son or Spirit.
But in trinitarianism, God is indissolubly three, so it would be incorrect, and in fact misleading, when God (the trinity) said "I am He and there is no one else besides Me." It's easy to say that only the father can speak as a single being without reference to the others, but God is not only the father. In this case, using verses like the one above, the father would be saying "I am God, and there is no other God besides me." Doesn't this automatically exclude the Son and Spirit from being "one God?"

Trinitarianism is that God is the trinity and therefore, in this paradigm, the trinity is improperly using singular pronouns when talking about "himself." (i.e. "themselves.")
I don't think it automatically excludes the Spirit and Son, and I grant that breaks the rules of grammar. If the Trinity can be considered One, and if they all share the same attributes, they call can say "I am he and there is no one else besides Me." That's how I view the Son and Spirit even if I acknowledge hierarchy among the Trinity. The Bible is free to call Jesus "Lord of Lords," even though he has a Lord, and technically that might seem inaccurate. Yet I see it as a Divine title nonetheless, because God is now his own God and Lord as well, and all on our behalf. And that's why Jesus submitting to the Father can be considered "God being all in all" even though Christ is right there in the mix.

Bless.

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