Did God die on the Cross?

God, Christ, & The Holy Spirit
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jriccitelli
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Did God die on the Cross?

Post by jriccitelli » Sat Dec 13, 2014 12:24 pm

So as not to change topic on a previous thread, and since the answer was similar to a question I read on another forum, I will post the question and answer here instead:
"Jesus died on the cross, right? Did God? Thank you for any and all responses" (Brin)
It all depends on your understanding of mans Dichotomy. I have never found it necessary to believe Jesus died in the Spirit, or that His Spirit died. In all the Theology I have poured through, it seems the flesh dies and the spirit of the righteous goes to be with Him who gave it. Jesus rose again because He Is The Life, He is The Creator of Life, and The Author of Life. As God: It is impossible for Him to die, and He alone possesses immortality, so we perceive that from our observations: that He left His body at death and that his body remained dead, until He indwelt his tent again, i.e. His resurrected His body.

When a believer dies, he is dead, his body is dead, and for all practical semantics we remain dead even though we are alive with Christ in the Spiritual realm. The death on the cross was the death of the flesh (symbolic of our own death to the flesh, and not unlike circumcision). Without Christ/God no one can be resurrected to 'life'. Only believers will see life again. Although the dead 'may' be 'conscious', believers and unbelievers are not 'among' the living, and are indeed dead (until the believer receives their immortal body).
'The Son became a human body, but whose spirit is the Holy Spirit?'
All three are One, and indeed all three indwell in Christ. But the substance and or nature of God are not the same as the persons, who are unique in themselves, and are distinct individuals who can talk to each other (One God, three persons). The incarnation seems to be a time when Jesus as a person was separate from the persons of the Holy Spirit and the Father. God does have person-hood, yet what person-hood 'looks like or consists of' can only be defined and understood as accurately and empirically as we can see and understand what spirit is. We can affirm that God and men have both person-hood and spirit, but what persons and spirits actually 'look like and consists of' is still beyond our ability to see or understand (I suppose if we could see or comprehend 'spirit' it may alter our definition of spirit). Just as: Gods fullness is beyond our ability to see our see or understand, yet we do know some things about God. And we can be sure of what God has 'revealed' about both the body and spirit from His revealed Word .

The incarnation seems to also be a time when Jesus was separate from His own Glory, and a time when Jesus had to rely on the on the other two persons of God for Divine knowledge and possibly Divine power, just as we do. Still, because of the power of a sinless life, death could not hold the Author of Life.

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Re: Did God die on the Cross?

Post by steve7150 » Sat Dec 13, 2014 12:31 pm

The incarnation seems to also be a time when Jesus was separate from His own Glory, and a time when Jesus had to rely on the on the other two persons of God for Divine knowledge and possibly Divine power, just as we do. Still, because of the power of a sinless life, death could not hold the Author of Life.
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I think Phil 2.7 says Jesus emptied himself but it doesn't say of what. Most believe it was his divine attributes and if true then Jesus the man died on the cross.

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TheEditor
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Re: Did God die on the Cross?

Post by TheEditor » Sat Dec 13, 2014 12:58 pm

Hi JR,

Nice way to start another thread on the trinity via the "today" and comma placement issue. ;)

I can see now why you need to be wedded to the idea that "today" meant that very day. Of course, I always knew that this was an objection of trinitarianism, but I thought we could avoid that discussion for once. Be that as it may, I seem to recall this statement:

"Just as the Son of man came, not to be ministered to, but to minister and to give his soul [life] a ransom in exchange for many." (Matthew 20:28)

The verse doesn't qualify the "life", just that it was "given". So yes, Jesus did "die", he did give his life or soul as a ransom for many and he was dead for parts of three days, just as he said he would be. This is just another conundrum your paradigm puts you in, but I have no doubt you have squared it just fine. :lol:

Regards, Brenden.
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Re: Did God die on the Cross?

Post by Paidion » Sat Dec 13, 2014 2:26 pm

JR wrote:I have never found it necessary to believe Jesus died in the Spirit, or that His Spirit died. In all the Theology I have poured through, it seems the flesh dies and the spirit of the righteous goes to be with Him who gave it.
Was that the case with Jesus also? Did He ascend to the Father immediately after his death? It seems that even after His resurrection, He had not yet ascended to the Father.

John 20:17 Jesus said to her, “Do not cling to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to my brothers and say to them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’”

Of course you can say that His "spirit" had ascended immediately after His death, but His resurrected body hadn't yet ascended.

As to the title of the thread, it presumes that Jesus is "God". However, in whatever sense you think of Him as "God", He is not God the Father. God the Father did not die on the cross.
'The Son became a human body, but whose spirit is the Holy Spirit?'
The Son became a human being—fully human. He IS the Holy Spirit (2 Cor 3:17). Jesus said to His disciples, "The Father and I will come and dwell with you." He didn't mean bodily; He meant through their Spirit. So the Holy Spirit is the spirit of the Father and of the Son. They are so united that they share the same spirit or personality. Our personalites are confined to our bodies, but the Father and the Son can extend theirs anywhere in the universe.
Paidion

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Re: Did God die on the Cross?

Post by dizerner » Sat Dec 13, 2014 2:46 pm

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Re: Did God die on the Cross?

Post by jriccitelli » Sat Dec 13, 2014 4:35 pm

We don’t know if Jesus had a separate human spirit made for himself, scripture never says so. So it would be only speculation, and not even necessary to answer the question above. The great thing about my approach is that it makes sense. I don’t have to cut off pieces of the bible to make them all fit, you just have to put them in the right order and context.

God is Eternal and Immortal, you cannot get around that. Therefore we must correlate Revelation chap.1 (I was dead) with God being Eternal. Observing all that God has revealed about Himself, what scripture revealed about The Sons incarnate state, and the human dichotomy. This can mean that Jesus in His incarnate state could die, but nothing implies a part of the Divine nature died, nor is it necessary. There is nothing about these facts that are a mystery, we have had enough of these facts revealed so that we ‘can’ give an answer to the question, without ignoring other biblical truths.

Jesus became incarnate for a reason, because for one God cannot die. Saying God died is as convoluted as saying Mary is the mother of God. God cannot die, and God was not born. Both these statements are similar as they both leave the context of scripture and say something scripture intentionally does not say or mean.
Don’t you know that we have to die and be born again to have life :?:
How long did you have to lie in a grave when you were born again :?:
And did your spirit die at that time :?:
It makes sense, it squares with scripture, and any other interpretation does not make sense.

dizerner

Re: Did God die on the Cross?

Post by dizerner » Sat Dec 13, 2014 5:49 pm

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Homer
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Re: Did God die on the Cross?

Post by Homer » Sat Dec 13, 2014 9:53 pm

Apparently speaking of God, Isaiah wrote:

Isaiah 44:6 (NASB)

6. “Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the Lord of hosts:
‘I am the first and I am the last,
And there is no God besides Me.


And in Revelation we read, speaking of Jesus:

Revelation 1:17-18 (NASB)

17. When I saw Him, I fell at His feet like a dead man. And He placed His right hand on me, saying, “Do not be afraid; I am the first and the last, 18. and the living One; and I was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of death and of Hades.


And also:

Revelation 22:13 (NASB)

13. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.”


So whose paradigm explains this? Are not Jesus and God both the first and the last? Yet in some sense one died and the other did not.

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Re: Did God die on the Cross?

Post by darinhouston » Sat Dec 13, 2014 10:39 pm

We don’t know if Jesus had a separate human spirit made for himself
"Human spirit" -- is that an oxymoron? Does humanity imply carnality? Is it possible that our spirit is something from God separate from our humanity? He breathes the spirit of life into us, then fills us further with his spirit. It seems that the spirit is somehow "other" than our humanity.

Are you talking instead about the "soul"? Is there a difference between the spirit and the soul ? (invoking the dichotomy vs. trichotomy debate, perhaps?)

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Re: Did God die on the Cross?

Post by TheEditor » Sun Dec 14, 2014 2:10 pm

The great thing about my approach is that it makes sense. I don’t have to cut off pieces of the bible to make them all fit, you just have to put them in the right order and context


This is what they call prima facie evidence on how a person cannot see their own inconsistency when they hold strongly to a paradigm.

JR, at least Dizerner admits the obvious; God died. This wasn't a "metaphoric" death of Jesus' dying to a former life, as we might do when "born again". And, what makes you thing we skate on the literal "dying thing"? Perhaps a physical death is required. Just because Paul said "we shall not all sleep" doesn't mean we don't have to "die". His use of the word "sleep" could be a reference to being dead for a time. I don't know.

But in the final analysis, either Jesus died literally for us, or he didn't. Either he was dead and in the heart of the earth for three days or he wasn't. No amount of re-arranging the puzzle pieces is going to make your "approach" a "great thing" that "makes sense". ;)

Regards, Brenden.
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