God's Justice

[Homer]

I don't know how many here know of John Lennox, the Christian apologist. Dr. Lennox is a professor of mathematics at Oxford University and has doctorates in mathematics, science, and philosophy. After hearing him debate I would consider him on par with C. S. Lewis as a thinker.

Most recently I was watching a debate Lennox had with the late atheist Christopher Hitchens, author of "God Is Not Great". Lennox made the point that if there is no God, neither is there justice; that God will judge and see that there is justice after we pass from this world. Thinking about this, if all God's punishments are corrective, not a bit more, and God takes no vengeance it would seem there is no justice, and that God is not a God of justice.

As an example, if a person who has committed atrocities in this life dies without being brought to any sort of justice, and after the resurrection is judged and receives no more or less than correction, how can it be said God is just?

[steve]

I don't know how many here know of John Lennox, the Christian apologist. Dr. Lennox is a professor of mathematics at Oxford University and has doctorates in mathematics, science, and philosophy. After hearing him debate I would consider him on par with C. S. Lewis as a thinker.

I agree about Lennox. I have often thought that he is a modern C.S. Lewis. Brilliant, but charming!

Most recently I was watching a debate Lennox had with the late atheist Christopher Hitchens, author of "God Is Not Great". Lennox made the point that if there is no God, neither is there justice; that God will judge and see that there is justice after we pass from this world. Thinking about this, if all God's punishments are corrective, not a bit more, and God takes no vengeance it would seem there is no justice, and that God is not a God of justice.

Justice is a beautiful thing. It is an attribute of God and it is the one trait that is fundamental to love. God's passion for justice is often celebrated in the Bible. It is a shame when Christians think of justice as primarily a negative thing.

As an example, if a person who has committed atrocities in this life dies without being brought to any sort of justice, and after the resurrection is judged and receives no more or less than correction, how can it be said God is just?

No more or less than if He corrects and receives us, I would think.

[backwoodsman]

As an example, if a person who has committed atrocities in this life dies without being brought to any sort of justice, and after the resurrection is judged and receives no more or less than correction, how can it be said God is just?

Your question assumes that (a) the motive behind punishment (corrective vs. retributive) somehow affects whether or not it can fulfill the demands of justice; (b) corrective punishment doesn't fulfill those demands; and (c) punishment done with correction as the ultimate goal can't also "count" as retributive. Did you intend to imply those ideas, and if so, where would one find them in scripture?

[Homer]

Steve wrote:

I agree about Lennox. I have often thought that he is a modern C.S. Lewis. Brilliant, but charming!

Watching the debate I was struck by the contrast in the countenance of the two. Hitchens seemed to be an unhappy man while Lennox seemed very pleasant and happy.

[steve]

So true! He has a cheerful, winsome countenance. Not so with Hitchens.

[Paidion]

Justice is a beautiful thing. It is an attribute of God and it is the one trait that is fundamental to love. God's passion for justice is often celebrated in the Bible. It is a shame when Christians think of justice as primarily a negative thing.

Not one of my acquaintances, family, or church family think of justice as negative. Nor have I ever met a single person whom I have ever heard express such a foolish idea. "Justice" is "fairness". Whom do you know that prefers unfairness to fairness?

The first definition of "justice" in the Oxford Dictionary is "The quality of being fair and reasonable."

'To thee, O Lord, belongeth mercy, for thou renderest to every man according to his work.' There is no opposition, no strife whatever, between mercy and justice. Those who say justice means the punishing of sin, and mercy the not punishing of sin, and attribute both to God, would make a schism in the very idea of God. And this brings me to the question, What is meant by divine justice?

Human justice may be a poor distortion of justice, a mere shadow of it; but the justice of God must be perfect... If you ask any ordinary Sunday congregation in England , what is meant by the justice of God, would not nineteen out of twenty answer that it means his punishing of sin? Think for a moment what degree of justice it would indicate in a man—that he punished every wrong. A Roman emperor, a Turkish cadi, might do that and be the most unjust of men and judges. Ahab might be just on the throne of punishment, and in his garden the murderer of Naboth. In God shall we imagine a distinction of office and character? God is one; and the depth of foolishness is reached by that theology which talks of God as if He held different offices, and differed in each. It sets a contradiction in the very nature of God Himself.

The justice of God is this ...that he gives every man, woman, and beast, everything that has being fair play; he renders to every man according to his work; and therein lies his perfect mercy; for nothing else could be merciful to the man, and nothing but mercy could be fair to him. — George MacDonald, Justice, Unspoken Sermons III

It won't do to redefine "justice" as "vengeance". Jesus did not cry out for vengeance on his murderers. He prayed a blessing of forgiveness [and repentance] for them.

[steve]

Perhaps some sermons should be left unspoken.

[Homer]

Hi Paidion,

I know you have a low view of the Old Testament, but consider this:

Deuteronomy 9:3 New King James Version (NKJV)

3. Therefore understand today that the Lord your God is He who goes over before you as a consuming fire. He will destroy them and bring them down before you; so you shall drive them out and destroy them quickly, as the Lord has said to you.

It is my belief that the destruction of the inhabitants of the land of Canaan was just, God's judgment on them. Note that God describes Himself as a consuming fire in this judgment. Now compare:

Hebrews 12:29 New King James Version (NKJV)

29. For our God is a consuming fire.

and:

Hebrews 10:29-31New King James Version (NKJV)

29. Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace? 30. For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” says the Lord. And again, “The Lord will judge His people.” 31. It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

I would say God's judgments are just, and the New Testament writer of Hebrews echoes Moses.

[dizerner]

[user account removed]

[Paidion]

Deuteronomy 9:3 New King James Version (NKJV)

3. Therefore understand today that the Lord your God is He who goes over before you as a consuming fire. He will destroy them and bring them down before you; so you shall drive them out and destroy them quickly, as the Lord has said to you.

It is my belief that the destruction of the inhabitants of the land of Canaan was just, God's judgment on them. Note that God describes Himself as a consuming fire in this judgment. Now compare:

Hebrews 12:29 New King James Version (NKJV)

29. For our God is a consuming fire.

You say, "It is my belief that the destruction of the inhabitants of the land of Canaan was just, God's judgment on them." Do you think the inhabitants of Canaan were any more wicked than those of the surrounding nations that were not destroyed? As Jesus said, "I tell you, no. Unless you repent you will all likewise be destroyed." The wickedness in us MUST be destroyed unless we repent (have a change of heart and mind) concerning it.

As for the Heb 12:29 verse to which you referred, the writer contrasts Moses' going up into the mountain (and the fear which accompanied it) with our coming to the heavenly Jerusalem:

18 For you have not come to what may be touched, a blazing fire and darkness and gloom and a tempest
19 and the sound of a trumpet and a voice whose words made the hearers beg that no further messages be spoken to them.
20 For they could not endure the order that was given, “If even a beast touches the mountain, it shall be stoned.”
21 Indeed, so terrifying was the sight that Moses said, “I tremble with fear.”
22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering,
23 and to the assembly of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect,
24 and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel.

Then the writer states that if they did not escape who refused Moses' warnings, how much less will we escape if we reject Jesus' warnings

25 See that you do not refuse him who is speaking. For if they did not escape when they refused him who warned them on earth, much less will we escape if we reject him who warns from heaven.

But what is the result for thosw who reject Christ (the one who warns from heaven)

26 At that time his voice shook the earth, but now he has promised, “Yet once more I will shake not only the earth but also the heavens.”
27 This phrase, “Yet once more,” indicates the removal of things that are shaken—that is, things that have been made—in order that the things that cannot be shaken may remain.

The practising sinner is going to get "all shook up", so that he will repent and be purified and his sins removed, in order that his very essence, the being created by God will remain.

28 Therefore let us be grateful for receiving a kingdom that cannot be shaken, and thus let us offer to God acceptable worship, with reverence and awe...

The kindom of heaven, that is, Christ and his subjects, cannot be shaken. His subjects have built on a solid foundation which will withstand all opposition.

29 for our God is a consuming fire.

Fire is a purifier. In the past, gold has been refined by fire. Our God consumes the dross out of people's lives, so that they will emerge as pure "gold".

Homer, it isn't quite accurate to say that I have a "low view" of the Old Testament, just because I affirm that the writers' view of God was incomplete, and that Jesus revealed the Father as He truly is. Indeed, I now quote Malachi in support of my sentence above:

He will sit as a refiner and a purifier of silver; He will purify the sons of Levi, And purge them as gold and silver, That they may offer to the LORD An offering in righteousness. (Mal 3:3)