Getting to The Will of God

[Homer]

psimmond wrote:

Molinists would say that everything that happens is part of God's plan, even the things God hates, yet permits. God's plan works through the free actions of humans. For example, the sinful actions of Joseph's brothers, Judas, and Pilate resulted in good in God's plan. Does God bring good out of every evil act? I don't know. Perhaps some acts result in no good but are allowed simply because God places such a high value on free will.

I think I am in your camp. God's sovereignty extends even to the sparrow. He may not be the direct cause of an event, but He always has a veto and can exercise that veto or allow the event to happen.

[dizerner]

[user account removed]

[psimmond]

dizerner, saying that everything is part of God's plan is far different from saying God enjoys or delights in everything that happens. As I said earlier, God allows many things that he hates!

God created this world with full knowledge of everything that would go down and yet created it anyway in spite of this knowledge. His plan existed before the foundation of the world. He could have said this plan contains beauty but it also contains ugliness therefore I will not put it into place, but he didn't.

Of course another option is to say God didn't know all these bad things would happen. This doesn't seem to fit the God of the Bible but I think some people prefer this option since God's ignorance allows us to view him as a God of butterflies, rainbows, and elevator music .

[Paidion]

The overall implication of Scripture is that evil is something God never desired to happen.

I agree with dizerner in this. Jesus taught his disciples to pray, "Your will be done on earth as it is in heaven."
This prayer implies that God's will is not always being done on earth. For if God's will were always being done on earth, then this prayer would be unnecessary.

[Homer]

In "No Other God" John Frame wrote:

Perhaps the best example is found in Acts 2:22-23 and 4:27-28. Here we see that in some sense God "willed" the delivering up of his Son while in another sense "did not will" it because it was a sinful thing for his executioners to do. As Piper explains, "Herod's contempt for Jesus (Luke 23:11), Pilate's spineless expediency (Luke 23:24), the Jews' 'Crucify! Crucify him!' (Luke 23:21), and the Gentile soldiers' mockery (Luke 23:36) were also sinful attitudes and deeds. Yet in Acts 4:27-28 Luke expresses his understanding of the sovereignty of God in these acts by recording the prayer of the Jerusalem saints: 'Truly in this city there were gathered together against thy holy servant Jesus, whom thou didst anoint both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel to do whatever thy hand and thy plan (boule) had predestined to take place.' Herod, Pilate, the soldiers, and Jewish crowds lifted their hand to rebel against the Most High only to find that their rebellion was unwitting (sinful) service in the inscrutable designs of God. . . . Therefore we know that it was not the 'will of God' that Judas and Pilate and Herod and the Gentile soldiers and the Jewish crowds disobey the moral law of God by sinning in delivering Jesus up to be crucified. But we also know that it was the will of God that this come to pass. Therefore we know that God in some sense wills what he does not will in another sense"

In his understanding of the scriptures cited, is he in error and, if so, how?

[Paidion]

It seems to me that the ramifications of what he says is that God has two conflicting wills so that it is impossible to do the will of God fully.
In this case, since it was God's will for Jesus to die, those persons responsible for his death were doing the will of God. But by so doing, they were not fulfilling God's moral law, and so they were NOT doing the will of God. As the saying goes, "Damned if you do, and damned if you don't!" Is that the way God is? Does He get you no matter what you do with his "just punishment"?

[psimmond]

It gets confusing because terms are often not clearly defined

I usually talk about God's will (θελημα), meaning his moral will & God's plan (βουλη). Of course, when you talk about God's plan, there's no getting around the fact that God willed his plan

I think using the terms "God's will" and "God's plan" avoids the confusion that Paidion pointed out that comes from discussing two wills.

[Homer]

Hi Paidion,

I think what John Frame has in mind is what theologians refer to as various aspects of God's will. These are referred to in various ways such as:

Determined or sovereign will which generally can not be known to us.

Desired will refers to God's disposition or attitude.

Prescriptive will is revealed to us in scripture in the form of laws and commands.

Some also cite God's perfect will as they see in Romans 12:2:

Romans 12:2 New King James Version (NKJV)

2. And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.

Thinking about this, it seems true that God's will is multifaceted. For example, it is God's prescriptive will that man should not murder his fellow man. But it is not His sovereign will; if it was He would intervene and not allow murder to take place.

Other than God having more than one will, how can the scriptures cited by frame be explained?

Others, feel free to give your opinion.

[psimmond]

It seems unnecessary to use "will" for both θελημα and βουλη. Why not say God's plan (βουλη) includes everything that takes place. Some of it aligns with God's will (θελημα) and some doesn't?

[nancyer]

I have to say, gentlemen, that I am loving this dialogue. Thank you so much for all the wisdom to ponder. I am not nearly so versed in doctrine and theology and still consider myself a novice Christian.

It is all fascinating and inspirational to say the least.

God bless you all