Joyce Meyer on Jesus being "born again"

[TK]

My wife was listening to Dr. Michael Brown's radio program the other day and he was coming down on Joyce Meyer for her statement that Jesus was the first person to be born again. Apparently she has stated this before and she said it again more recently.

I don't know much about this theology, but if I had to guess the reasoning might go something like this:

When Jesus "became sin" on the cross or when he took on the sins of the world, he became a sinner, and therefore had to be "born again." Of course this may not be what she is saying.

Can anyone explain this theology quirk of hers? I know a lot of people like to listen to her who may know nothing about this troubling aspect of her Christology.

TK

[Paidion]

I don't know what Joyce Meyers meant by it, but consider the following verses:

He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. (Colossians 1:15 )

Jesus was the first being to be begotten of God before all ages, or the firstborn before all ages. To be the "firstborn of all creation" doesn't imply that He was created.
He wasn't. As the ancient creed affirms "begotten not created". (By the way, translations such as the NKJV are misleading by translating the phrase "firstborn over all creation".
There is no word "over" in the Greek. Rather "creation" being in the genitive case means "of creation").


Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in everything he might be preeminent.

Jesus was also the first to experience a true resurrection, that to be raised immortal. As the "firstborn from the dead", he experience a second birth—thus born again.

In both verses above the Greek word for "born" is used. But in John 3, it's not "born", but "begotten". Jesus said to Nicodemus, "You must be begotten again."
Perhaps it is correct to say that we have been first begotten when we were conceived. Then as a fetus, we grew in our mother's womb until we were born.
Similarly, when we are begotten the second time when we submitted to Christ, we began growing spiritually, and are still growing. But at the last day, Christ raises us from the dead, and so we are born into the resurrection. That is OUR second birth. That is when we shall be born again.

[jriccitelli]

I do not believe Jesus was born again. The term has to be used in the context to which Jesus used it. Whether or not a literal rebirth or whatever transformation happens or not to us, Jesus only referred to us as we ‘needing’ to die and be reborn. Where we ‘must’ be born again, He was Himself ‘is the Life’ we must be raised up into. Jesus’ transformation into a different form does not mean we are free to use the terminology spoken of only for us and turn it back on Him, in trying to make some point.

Me and my wife’s first big argument was over Joyce Meyer. I felt that although Joyce has stepped away from Word Faith doctrines, she still had not come out and spoken against them, or confess to her audience that she no longer believes in it
I wisely dropped the argument with my wife, and yet my wife also has come to see my point, and agreed.
Since then I have listened to Joyce Meyer a lot because I do appreciate her, and because my wife does. I have heard her for the past ten years rebuke most of the Word Faith ideas about health and prosperity, although covertly. She does still sell and promote some of the WOF-ish books.
But all said, I really really love her ability to reach and deal with woman’s issues with an approach that is heavily saturated with scripture. She seems to be really advancing her own understanding of scripture as she says herself, and it comes through in her teaching
Joyce Meyer is generally the first set of cds or videos I recommend or hand out to female new believers and unbelieving who seem would take to her, she is in a way fantastic at reaching females, and I have gotten Joyce Meyer cds for my own daughter.

[jriccitelli]

(I 'kind of' agree with Paidion, as his verses point out the ‘terms’ first begotten and first born are not in the same context or sense as 'born again', maybe this is where Joyce is making the mistake)
(And as a side note; I have long thought as Mary being the first person to experience Christ living within, yet I usually do not promote the thought out loud)

[Paidion]

I do not believe Jesus was born again. The term has to be used in the context to which Jesus used it.

Jesus didn't use the term, as I pointed out in my post above. He used the term "begotten again."

[steve7150]

When Jesus "became sin" on the cross or when he took on the sins of the world, he became a sinner, and therefore had to be "born again." Of course this may not be what she is saying.

Can anyone explain this theology quirk of hers? I know a lot of people like to listen to her who may know nothing about this troubling aspect of her Christology.










I like Joyce but she will never be mistaken for a theologian. I think she thinks Jesus went down to hell and was born again with spiritual power to defeat the devil and his demons to qualify for his resurrection.

[TheEditor]

Greetings,

As to this idea of Jesus being born again; I can't speak for JM's idea about sin, but as a former JW, I know that they taught (as do a few other groups) that Jesus was the first of the New Creation, and that some think this idea of being a "new creation" is synonymous with being "born again". They are, after all, only terms use to reflect a spiritual reality, so I can't speak to the validity of any of these notions.

Regards, Brenden.

[steve7150]

As to this idea of Jesus being born again; I can't speak for JM's idea about sin, but as a former JW, I know that they taught (as do a few other groups) that Jesus was the first of the New Creation, and that some think this idea of being a "new creation" is synonymous with being "born again". They are, after all, only terms use to reflect a spiritual reality, so I can't speak to the validity of any of these notions.

Regards, Brenden.






I think the JWs believe you are born again upon your resurrection.

[Paidion]

I think the JWs believe you are born again upon your resurrection.

So do I. And so did Herbert W. Armstrong, though I have never followed either him or the JWs.

When we have repented and submitted to the authority of Christ we are begotten again (This is the phrase used in John 3, not "born again").

When a human sperm unites with a human egg, a new life is begotten. Then it grows in the womb for nine months and is born. Something analogous happens to the regenerated person. He is generated again (or "begotten" again) when he enters the door of salvation. Then he has a spiritual growth.

... he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ. (Php 1:6)

The process of that "good work", i.e. your spiritual growth is analgous to the human foetus being "fed" in the womb, and growing into a mature baby. Then it becomes born and emerges into a completely different life. That is analgous to our emergence at our resurrection into a very different form of life—an immortal life.

And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence. (Col. 1:18)

Jesus was the first to be BORN from the dead, having been the first to have a true resurrection. So on that great resurrection day when Jesus raises us from the dead, we also shall experience the second birth.

[TheEditor]

Hi Steve7150,

No, the JWs don't teach that. They believe that for those who are spirit-begotten, being "born again" occurs after conversion and adoption as sons of God by holy spirit. Now, if my memory serves me correctly, Nelson Barbour, who was an early associate of CT Russell (they had a falling out) went on to teach something like all believers must go through a literal rebirth after death, I forget the particulars. That seems to be not an uncommon teaching in the greater Adventist community. But never with JWs to my knowledge.

Regards, Brenden.