Baptism of the Holy Spirit

[steve]

I am not sure what is changed by using the synonym "languages" instead of "tongues." They mean the same thing, and all charismatics (as far as I know) believe that "speaking in an unknown tongue" means "speaking in an unknown language."

I don't use the term "prayer language", but if I did, I would probably use 1 Cor.14:28, which says that one who cannot speak out in the church in tongues, because there is no interpreter present, should "speak to himself and to God."

It would seem strange for Paul to list "speaking in languages" and "interpretation of languages" as spiritual gifts (along with prophecy, working of miracles, headings, etc.) if he only had a natural facility in a known language in mind when he used those terms. If a person speaking in, or interpreting, a "tongue" meant only that he/she happened to know the language already and could either speak it or translate it, then nothing Paul said about these subjects in 1 Corinthians 14 would make sense. For example, why would one who spoke in such a tongue have to pray for the ability to interpret it (v.13)? How could such speaking be a sign to unbelievers (v.22) or be described as "speaking mysteries in the Spirit" (v.2)?

[Homer]

Hi Steve,

You wrote:

It would seem strange for Paul to list "speaking in languages" and "interpretation of languages" as spiritual gifts (along with prophecy, working of miracles, headings, etc.) if he only had a natural facility in a known language in mind when he used those terms.

But in the same chapter Paul lists what appear to be ordinary gifts, such as the ability and resources to help others, along with languages (tongues):

1 Corinthians 12:28
New King James Version (NKJV)
28. And God has appointed these in the church: first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, varieties of tongues.

And in Romans 12 Paul's list does not necessarily include anything other than natural facility in his list of gifts:

Romans 12:6-8
New King James Version (NKJV)
6. Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, let us use them: if prophecy, let us prophesy in proportion to our faith; 7. or ministry, let us use it in our ministering; he who teaches, in teaching; 8. he who exhorts, in exhortation; he who gives, with liberality; he who leads, with diligence; he who shows mercy, with cheerfulness.

If a person speaking in, or interpreting, a "tongue" meant only that he/she happened to know the language already and could either speak it or translate it, then nothing Paul said about these subjects in 1 Corinthians 14 would make sense. For example, why would one who spoke in such a tongue have to pray for the ability to interpret it (v.13)?

But if you go back to verse 10 Paul is clearly speaking of extant human languages. There is nothing to give us a "heads up, the meaning of glossa is now being changed".

It would make sense if the person in v.13 was visiting and not fluent in the local language, even if he could speak some of the local language.

How could such speaking be a sign to unbelievers (v.22)

If you look at the context, Paul in v.21 clearly has human languages, already known by the speaker, in mind. If what follows is some sort of unknown language then v.21 is pointless. V.22 refers back to v.21:

1 Corinthians 14:21-22(KJV)

21. In the law it is written:
“With men of other tongues and other lips
I will speak to this people;
And yet, for all that, they will not hear Me,”
says the Lord.

22. Therefore tongues are for a sign, not to those who believe but to unbelievers; but prophesying is not for unbelievers but for those who believe.

or be described as "speaking mysteries in the Spirit" (v.2)

There is no Greek en (in) or definite article (the) in the Greek; it seems to be a reference to the spiritual side in the person. The NIV has "with his spirit", with "in the Spirit" as a footnote. Many of the best commentators agree with the NIV.

[jriccitelli]

(Where the ancient Church has historically hugely distorted baptism; infant baptism, etc. The modern Church has turned 'the Baptism of the Holy Spirit' into a doctrine of unknown tongues)

Most disturbing to me is that the vitally important doctrine of 'salvation and being indwelt and sealed with Gods Spirit' centers on - and becomes occupied with - an obsession over speaking in an unknown tongue, with little scriptural support, even after Paul chastises them about it, and even says he would rather speak intelligible words among the church, etc.
To me it is a sign of immaturity when a churches pastor asks me if I speak in tongues, I had only been talking to this one pastor for only 3 minutes or so when he asked me this, rather than ask my name first, or whether or not I knew Jesus or something more important.
Is this the sign of the true Church, or the sign of an immature church?
Are millions of people being led astray by these 'pastors of tongues'?

[jriccitelli]

Another thing that seems to be forgotten in all the babble about tongues in the Pentecostal circles (and infecting the rest of the church) is that the Holy Spirit is 'Holy'.

When I look for a manifestation of a Holy Spirit filled Church I look for holiness (as opposed to 'a bunch of people running in circles waving ribbons and babbling).
I understand that joy and boldness come from a life of holiness, and 'this' results in a message of repentance and salvation.
The gift of prophecy and tongues and such was quite manifest at Pentecost, and 'at times' God does amazing things as signs, but throughout the Bible 'Holiness' is generally manifest 'as holiness'. God, Jesus, Peter, and others seem to speak alot throughout the bible of holiness as ceasing from sin and oneness with the world;

Romans 12:1 'Therefore I urge you, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies a living and holy sacrifice, acceptable to God, which is your spiritual service of worship'
Romans 14:17 'for the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit'
2 Corinthians 6:6 'in purity, in knowledge, in patience, in kindness, in the Holy Spirit, in genuine love'
2 Peter 3:11 '…people ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness'

'The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit, be with you all' (2 Corinthians 13:14)

[Paidion]

Paul chastises them about it, and even says he would rather speak intelligible words among the church, etc.

Be careful, JR! Paul also said:

I thank God that I speak in tongues more than all of you. (I Corinthians 14:18 ESV)

[jarrod]

Another thing that seems to be forgotten in all the babble about tongues in the Pentecostal circles (and infecting the rest of the church) is that the Holy Spirit is 'Holy'.

When I look for a manifestation of a Holy Spirit filled Church I look for holiness.

That is an excellent point jriccitelli. "By their fruit you will recognize them..." and "the fruit of the Spirit is ..." If something is claimed to be of the Lord, then it should be evident by what it produces.

[Homer]

Be careful, JR! Paul also said:

I thank God that I speak in tongues more than all of you. (I Corinthians 14:18 ESV)

Yes, Paul was multilingual, as were most people in the early church. Aramaic and Koine Greek were common, and Latin was emerging as an international language as the Roman empire was expanding its domain.

[Paidion]

It is obvious, Homer, from the whole chapter 14, that Paul is writing about a supernatural gift, and not multilingualism — a gift which he compares to another supernatural gift — the gift of prophecy.

[Homer]

Hi Paidion,

Before I reply, I would like to know your position regarding the following:

The first thing that ought to be established is what the "tongues" spoken today are. There seems to be a variety of definitions among modern Charismatics/Pentecostals. For the sake of this discussion, a few word definitions must be made.

1. Akolalia: a speaker speaks in one language and the hearer hears in his own language (or one he understands)

2. Glossolalia: a speaker speaks in a language that has no correspondence to a known language

3. Xenolalia: a speaker speaks in a known (foreign) language unknown to him

The quote is from a thread I initiated about 2 1/2 years ago:

http://www.theos.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=67&t=3204

[Paidion]

Before I reply, I would like to know your position regarding the following:

The first thing that ought to be established is what the "tongues" spoken today are. There seems to be a variety of definitions among modern Charismatics/Pentecostals. For the sake of this discussion, a few word definitions must be made.

1. Akolalia: a speaker speaks in one language and the hearer hears in his own language (or one he understands)

2. Glossolalia: a speaker speaks in a language that has no correspondence to a known language

3. Xenolalia: a speaker speaks in a known (foreign) language unknown to him

Okay, and just before I reply to that, I would like to say that I am not sure what the tongues spoken on that special day of Pentecost was. Many think it was akolalia, and I see that as a possibility since it is written in Acts 2 that everyone heard in his own language. But then why would some think that they were drunk? It couldn't have been akolalia unless some present weren't given the ability to hear in their own language. The other possibility is that it was xenolalia. Perhaps the apostles, in turn, spoke in various human languages.

But in I Corinthians 14, I think it is clearly glossalia of which Paul writes.

As for our own day, I have never heard of any case which was claimed to be akolalia.

For most who "speak in tongues", it is glossolalia. Some who have received this gift, can do this any time they wish. My wife is one of those. Others can do it only when the Holy Spirit comes upon them. In my own personal case, I sometimes "sing in tongues" when I am especially praising God and the Spirit comes upons me. But I can't do it just any time I want.

Personally, I have heard xenolalia myself. When I was attending a PAOC church in Thunder Bay, Ontario because my aunt was filling in as an intinerant minister, I heard a woman speaking in Greek. I think she was speaking it as it was spoken in NT times. I didn't catch much of it, but I heard her utter the phrase "λεγει ὁ κυριος" several times. Later on she "interpreted" or translated what she had said, and it seemed she said "says the Lord" about the same number of times. I was amazed and wished I had had a tape recorder so that I could have tried to analyze it. I talked to my aunt later about it and she said, "I'm SURE Mrs. Jones doesn't know GREEK." But she didn't seem surprised that she spoke it.

My sister once told me that in a church in Winnipeg many years earlier, a man got up and "spoke in tongues." When he finished, and while he was still standing, the pastor asked, "Is there an interpreter?" — silence.
"Sit down, Brother. You are out of order." So the man sat down. The meeting continued as usual, and after it was over a Chinese man came up to the pastor and asked, "Who was that guy who was speaking Chinese in the meeting?"

"Huh? What? Who?"

As it turned out the man had given the gospel in Chinese, and the inquirer became a Christian that very evening. At a later meeting, the pastor apolgized to the people, stating that he (the pastor) was wrong to have told the man that he was out of order, and that instead, he had spoken the gospel in Chinese by the grace of God.

By the way, I am not, and never have been, a member of a Pentecostal or Charismatic church.