Baptism of the Holy Spirit

[jriccitelli]

The filling of the Spirit can be understood easier if you think of it as when God is 'fulfilling' what His will is, in other words when someone in the Bible was filled with the Spirit 'they did something' they fulfilled something in the Spirit.

Someone wrote; 'I understand the difference or warning of trying to "feel" His presence vs. knowing His presence. I really believe He is present in many, just perhaps not filling'

You are right, 'if' a person really has truly repented and 'believed' in Christ, God will honor His promise and abide in us, as we (abide) in Him, n other words what is talked of as 'the baptism of the Holy Spirit', the continuous abiding of God in us;
'If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father. The Promise Is Eternal Life 25 This is the promise which He Himself made to us: eternal life. 26 These things I have written to you concerning those who are trying to deceive you.27 As for you, the anointing which you received from Him abides in you, and you have no need for anyone to teach you; but as His anointing teaches you about all things, and is true and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you abide in Him' (1John2:24-28)

It is the sealing in Him (Father Son and the Holy Spirit), that gives us salvation, relationship, and knowledge directly with God. Unlike pre-New Covenant Saints, the New Covenant promises the believer that the Spirit will abide with us forever, yet the believer abides in the Spirit by believing;
'This is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as He commanded us.24 The one who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. We know by this that He abides in us, by the Spirit' (1John3:23-24)

(I'm not making this stuff up) It seems that keeping His Commandments is interlocked with abiding in Him. But it is circular, we can only keep His Commandments when we abide in Him (in the Spirit), and yet we can only 'know' if we are truly in Him (in the Spirit) when we keep His commandments. Note; that God does 'not' say that He will only abide in us 'if' we keep the Commandments (that was the Old Covenant).
That is the good news, even when we sin the Holy Spirit (God) has not left us;
'Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ? Shall I then take away the members of Christ and make them members of a prostitute? May it never be!16 Or do you not know that the one who joins himself to a prostitute is one body with her? For He says, "The two shall become one flesh."17 But the one who joins himself to the Lord is one spirit with Him.18 Flee immorality. Every other sin that a man commits is outside the body, but the immoral man sins against his own body.19 Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and that you are not your own? 20 For you have been bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body' (1Corin.6:15-19)

[jriccitelli]

When you 'know' God is with you, sin will grieve you, and should disgust you, and to drag God along with you in sin becomes a horrible feeling. This is how I 'know' I am filled with the Spirit, although I am tempted to steal lie and sin, I cannot (1John 3:9) because His Holiness, and Grace compels me to stay by His side, feeling God smile on you is the joy of salvation. This is the filling of the Holy Spirit for me, doing what is pleasing to Him. (It is difficult, for as Paul relates;
'…I find then the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wants to do good. For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man' (Romans7:14-25), and;
'For indeed in this house we groan… For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad…11 Therefore, knowing the fear of the Lord, we persuade men… For the love of Christ controls us'[/u] (2 Corinthians 5:1-14)

Again if Gods purpose in us is to bear fruit, by His Spirit, then it is when we are bearing fruit that we are filled with the Spirit, and may I add feeling the Joy of Gods Spirit;
'If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you.8 My Father is glorified by this, that you bear much fruit, and so prove to be My disciples…. These things I have spoken to you so that My joy may be in you, and that your joy may be made full'12 "This is My commandment, that you love one another, just as I have loved you' (John 15:7-12)

I know God manifests visual and miraculous occurrences, and at times signs, but this is not the goal of Gods purpose and salvation for us, his purpose was to produce Holiness in us by His Holy Spirit, not signs.
It is amazing that some churches make the signs the focus, this is terribly wrong, Jesus did not create the world, then die on the Cross so that we could speak in angelic tongues, I notice that in scripture even the Angels speak in the hearers language.

[jriccitelli]

'It felt like there was a 1000 lb weight on top of me.. and then the tears came. But not just for me.. this was happening to everyone in the room. It was a time of deep repentance and a definite filling of the HS and I was forever changed. There was no tongues speaking that I was aware of' (wrote TK)
I too have these moments, a refreshing breath of fresh air in God, a touch of Gods hand, a filling of the Spirit, but I was never empty. This seems to result from seeking, focusing, worship, and abiding in Christ. Oneness with God 'is the fulfillment' of our purpose, and the purpose for having been raised from the dead in Christ, and this death and resurrection is our baptism into His Holy Spirit.

I too have had times of being overcome with great joy and release in worship and prayer, I have had epiphanies and joyous revelations while driving along in my car and so on.
And like everyone else, that feeling or moment comes, and goes, but yet I know the Spirit does not leave, so what does filling mean?
The (most) times I have felt full of the Spirit are often when I least expect it, when I am talking with someone and all of a sudden I feel the words coming out of my mouth are the right words, when I am in a situation that somehow seems arraigned by God, as in a time to give witness, or give someone a hand with something.

I do not read of Jesus speaking in angelic Tongue language, I do not see the Prophets speaking in tongues, I do not see Moses, David, Samson… neither John the Baptist, Elizabeth, Mary…nor do I not see the disciples speaking in angelic tongues either (it certainly does not appear to be a language written down anywhere), so except for Paul's mention of tongues of angels', angelic language does not seem to be much of a focus in scripture anywhere, and yet Holiness is a focus on every page of scripture.

Again, The filling of the Spirit can be understood easier if you think of it as when God is 'fulfilling' what His will is, in other words when someone in the Bible was filled with the Spirit 'they did something'.
Sometimes we will pray to be filled with the Spirit before we go into a home or something, and during that meeting some amazing conversations take place, witnessing or counseling, whatever.

This is what the scripture testifies to also…note every event of being filled with the Holy Spirit, Old Testament too, they did 'something' specific, accomplished an act of the Spirit, and then went on…

[RICHinCHRIST]

Then I listened to a teaching by Andrew Wommack on this and he said that when he first rec'd the baptism of the HS he said he thought the same way I did about tongues. Then a pastor friend visited him and he told AW to just start speaking in tongues, AW said he didnt know how. Then the pastor told him that he (the pastor) would speak in tongues and AW should just repeat what he said. AW said that would be just pretending. The pastor's point was that speaking in tongues requires faith-- you have to take the step of speaking. The HS will not force you to speak. You have to give utterance. Anyways, at some point AW got over his mental block and began to speak in tongues...

When I received the gift of tongues I wasn't seeking for it. I was actually in the shower at the time and just started speaking in tongues during a season of intense spiritual warfare. At first, I thought that I had been given that gift solely for that one time since I had no control over it. I assumed that if God could do it then, surely he could do it again if I needed the gift.

A couple years later I read in 1 Corinthians 14 where Paul exhorts the church to have order in the meeting and that the gift of tongues can actually be controlled since Paul commanded that one should speak in tongues silently to himself in order to prevent disorder in the meeting.

I began to try and speak in tongues from that point forward and have found it to be an essential aspect of my prayer life. At first I felt stupid trying it, and it seemed fake... but then the Spirit overwhelmed me and I was able to "find the groove". So I think there's a place for attempting to speak in tongues even though one may have little or no experience in the gift. The weird thing would be attempting to use the gift when God didn't intend for you to have that gift (which I'm sure is the case for certain individuals in the charismatic movement). Perhaps the first time you speak in tongues it happens through God guiding you... how else would you know if you really have the gift?

[jarrod]

At first I felt stupid trying it, and it seemed fake... but then the Spirit overwhelmed me and I was able to "find the groove". So I think there's a place for attempting to speak in tongues even though one may have little or no experience in the gift. The weird thing would be attempting to use the gift when God didn't intend for you to have that gift (which I'm sure is the case for certain individuals in the charismatic movement). Perhaps the first time you speak in tongues it happens through God guiding you... how else would you know if you really have the gift?

I really like this thought -- it seems honest. The thought had never occurred to me to try it in my personal prayer life. I have never really sought it; I just figured it to be something I do not have (nor have I ever experienced). Nothing wrong with praying, trying, and being honest with ourselves and the Lord about it!

Thanks, Jrod

[Homer]

Where does one find the "private prayer language" concept advocated in the scriptures? Seems to me there is scant support for it. And why would it be beneficial? If God wanted certain things prayed for, couldn't He move you to pray for those things in your own language? And aren't our gifts for "the common good" rather than private use?

I know, lots of questions, but this is very puzzling to a non-charismatic.

[jarrod]

Where does one find the "private prayer language" concept advocated in the scriptures? Seems to me there is scant support for it. And why would it be beneficial? If God wanted certain things prayed for, couldn't He move you to pray for those things in your own language? And aren't our gifts for "the common good" rather than private use?

I know, lots of questions, but this is very puzzling to a non-charismatic.

I really think the use of our gifts for the common good have to be an outpouring of the personal relationship with the Father. To focus too much on outward gifting is as bad as focusing too much on a personal relationship. The greatest commandments are:



Not only are we suppose to love others as ourselves, but to have a personal relationship with the Father. If there was something private that we do to communicate to our Father that is from the Spirit and beneficial, what is the problem in that? How does that jeopardize the "common good" of using your gifts. I think, in fact, it allows you to excel for the Kingdom at a greater rate.

I understand your comment about support being scant, but I do believe it has some Scriptural evidence. If it says it once, and is plain to see, who cares if it is riddled throughout. Perhaps it was not the focus, but mentioned nonetheless. This is the first that comes to mind:

13 Therefore let him who speaks in a tongue pray that he may interpret. 14 For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my understanding is unfruitful. 15 What is the conclusion then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will also pray with the understanding. I will sing with the spirit, and I will also sing with the understanding. 16 Otherwise, if you bless with the spirit, how will he who occupies the place of the uninformed say “Amen” at your giving of thanks, since he does not understand what you say? 17 For you indeed give thanks well, but the other is not edified.

18 I thank my God I speak with tongues more than you all; 19 yet in the church I would rather speak five words with my understanding, that I may teach others also, than ten thousand words in a tongue.

I underlined the parts I believe needed emphasis. Does what I say make sense? It is possible I misunderstood you altogether.

Jrod

[jarrod]

I was just thinking and talking a bit more about this subject.

I know that the one verse I posted does not prove, beyond a shadow of doubt, that there is such a thing as a "private prayer language." However, we can see that there is something Spiritual and it does not deny that it does not exist.

I for one do not possess this gift, but if others say they do and they are of sound mind, then I don't think Scripture would prove the experience wrong. Whatever it is, it is communication that is Supernatural. I don't want to limit it to one use or purpose if Scripture does not.

and to another the effecting of miracles, and to another prophecy, and to another the distinguishing of spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, and to another the interpretation of tongues.

Jrod

[Perry]

I really would have thought the text for the private tongue would have been:



To me, myself a non tongues speaker, this seems to be the best evidence for the genuineness of this spiritual phenomena.

[Homer]

Perry wote:

I really would have thought the text for the private tongue would have been:

1 Corinthians 14:2
For he who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God, for no one understands [him]; however, in the spirit he speaks mysteries. 3 But he who prophesies speaks edification and exhortation and comfort to men. 4 He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself, but he who prophesies edifies the church. (NKJV)

To me, myself a non tongues speaker, this seems to be the best evidence for the genuineness of this spiritual phenomena.

The underlined part it is taken to be absolute but that is not necessary and even contradicts the idea of a gift of interpretation. The church we attend has a "sister" church in Mexico that is assisted in various ways. Occasionally the pastor comes up for a visit and speaks. An interpreter accompanies him, otherwise it could be said "no one understands him".

It is my belief that the translation "tongues" is a large part of the difficulty in understanding what Paul wrote. We could have just as well translate it "languages"; "tongues" sounds mysterious but simply meant "languages" when the KJV translation was made.