Healing with the Atonement

[steve7150]

So I guess that is sort of my point-- arguing about whether healing is in the atonement or not may be one of those academic discussions that don't (or shouldn't) make a significant difference from a practical standpoint.

I think we should be praying and commanding sickness to leave in Jesus' name-- regardless of where we stand on the theological issue. I think it is what Jesus would want us to do.




Interestingly Calvinists who supposedly believe whatever happens is God's will still pray for the healing of loved ones blurring the line between theological and practical.
Sometimes i command sickness to leave in Jesus name and sometimes i pray to God to heal in Jesus name, not sure why i vary it.

[TK]

steve7150 wrote:

Sometimes i command sickness to leave in Jesus name and sometimes i pray to God to heal in Jesus name, not sure why i vary it.

Me too- but I think the pattern laid out by Jesus is for us to speak and command vs praying.

I find it easier to command for my own illnesses vs someone else's-- probably out of fear of man(and years of tradition). However, I am getting bolder at going after sickness in others this way as well.

TK

[Michelle]

Me too- but I think the pattern laid out by Jesus is for us to speak and command vs praying.

TK, do you think you could lay this out for me?

[Homer]

What is the scriptural basis for "commanding" a disease to leave a person? Our authority is not the same as Jesus' authority. And wouldn't we be demanding God do our will since He is the one with the power to remove the disease? Or has He somewhere given us "authority" over sickness?

[jriccitelli]

The curse put on man in the Garden of Eden was death.
I still see that all Christians die, eventually.
Often I have done a bible topic study on the subject of 'the Curse', based on the Garden of Eden Curse. I have always felt this topic should be one of the first topics taught because it goes over how 'all' of Gods Creation is 'good', even the curse was 'good', only mans sin is 'bad'. All of Gods judgments are good and righteous concerning sin (Once you break them down), it is 'sin' that is bad.
Creation is Gods will, the Curse was Gods will, bacteria is Gods will, the devil is Gods will, 'Sin' is not Gods will, the curse, bacteria, and the Devil were created with purpose, it is only sin that opposes Gods will
(sin is neither created).

I ask my 'Word of Faith' friends; Who created bacteria? Who created the virus?
The devil didn't sit down in some lab and come up with a virus.
Bacteria and Viruses have structure and design, they were created by God.
God has allowed death and disease for a purpose, to give understanding and sense to mortals, an understanding of the continual existense of God, and the senselessness of sin. Life comes and goes, God remains.
The vanity of chasing life, instead of seeking the life maker.
So it says; "There is an appointed time for everything. And there is a time for every event under heaven, A time to give birth and a time to die; A time to plant and a time to uproot what is planted" (Eccl 3:1-2)

I looked around at the people in church today, and Good godly people get older, not because they are not praying enough, older people certainly pray more than the young people. It is because human bodies stop producing cells that balance the growth and deterioration processes. You can try and offset these processes, but the process continues, eyes grow dim, hair falls out, skin wrinkles, the body starts a process of turning off, all prevention just prolongs it, but nothing eliminates it.

[TK]

Homer wrote:

What is the scriptural basis for "commanding" a disease to leave a person? Our authority is not the same as Jesus' authority. And wouldn't we be demanding God do our will since He is the one with the power to remove the disease? Or has He somewhere given us "authority" over sickness?

From these verses:

Then the disciples came to Jesus privately and said, “Why could we not cast it out?” So Jesus said to them, “Because of your unbelief; for assuredly, I say to you, if you have faith as a mustard seed, you will SAY to this mountain, ‘Move from here to there,’ and it will move; and nothing will be impossible for you. (Mt. 17:19=20)

So Jesus answered and said to them, “Assuredly, I say to you, if you have faith and do not doubt, you will not only do what was done to the fig tree, but also if you SAY to this mountain, ‘Be removed and be cast into the sea,’ it will be done.

TK

[Michelle]

Thanks, TK, for showing the scriptural basis for your belief. What do you have to say about the fact that the very next verse in each passage talks about asking God for anything in prayer?

From these verses:

Then the disciples came to Jesus privately and said, “Why could we not cast it out?” So Jesus said to them, “Because of your unbelief; for assuredly, I say to you, if you have faith as a mustard seed, you will SAY to this mountain, ‘Move from here to there,’ and it will move; and nothing will be impossible for you. (Mt. 17:19=20)

So Jesus answered and said to them, “Assuredly, I say to you, if you have faith and do not doubt, you will not only do what was done to the fig tree, but also if you SAY to this mountain, ‘Be removed and be cast into the sea,’ it will be done.

[steve7150]

I looked around at the people in church today, and Good godly people get older, not because they are not praying enough, older people certainly pray more than the young people. It is because human bodies stop producing cells that balance the growth and deterioration processes. You can try and offset these processes, but the process continues, eyes grow dim, hair falls out, skin wrinkles, the body starts a process of turning off, all prevention just prolongs it, but nothing eliminates it.



I think Paul said "sin came into the world and death to every man" but the dying process may be a different category then disease. In the NT it seems most diseases were caused by the devil, has the devil left town? Undoubtedly many diseases happen because of a sin filled world but i can't distinguish between the two and i just try and follow what Jesus said in Mark 11.23.

[TK]

Michelle wrote:

What do you have to say about the fact that the very next verse in each passage talks about asking God for anything in prayer?

I would probably say that there is a time to pray, and a time to command (in Jesus' name). And i don't think we really have to actually SAY "in Jesus's name" but it is a hard habit to brake.

I think that Jesus gave Christians (i.e the true Church) a certain level of authority-- some of this is laid out in Eph. 1-2.

For example, let's say we are confronted with a demonized person. Are we to simply pray that God release this person? Almost every story I have heard or read about accounts of demonized persons is that the Christian(s) present commands the demon to leave. I have never been in the presence of a person who was obviously demonized, so I am not sure exactly how I would act. But I dont think it would be the right time for a prayer meeting. I am ALREADY supposed to prayed up. I am already supposed to be on the same page as the Lord so that I know what He wants done in any circumstance.

The accounts of Jesus healing and the apostles healing appear to be cases of them commanding healing, or simply asking the person to do something ("stretch out your hand"). Jesus was perfectly in tune with the Father and therefore he only did what the Father told him to do. The apostles as well approached this sort of relationship. Now I realize that the apostles are a special case. And I dont think they healed everyone they saw. But I believe they had the authority to do so, if God wanted them to do so. And of course it is God doing the healing.

I believe those who make up the Church are agents of Jesus on the earth, which means we have authority to do Jesus type things. I think this extends beyond giving to the poor, loving our neighbors, etc. I believe it extends into areas of healing and the miraculous-- but of course much of it is still a mystery to me.

TK

[jriccitelli]

Often it seems the verses I am given for commanding diseases are the ones dealing with demon possession, but a demon and a sickness are two different things. I don’t see Jesus commanding the diseases, if you are talking to a demon you might use a direct command but the idea of talking to a disease is infer there is a ‘spirit’ of cancer or alcohol. I think there is no ground for that, Jesus was not inferring that the fig tree or mountain had a ‘spirit’.