"in heaven and on the earth and under the earth"

[Homer]

Paidion,

You wrote:

The word "aionios" means "lasting" or "durable" without any temporal connotation.

No temporal connotation? Paul certainly did not understand it that way:

2 Corinthians 4:17-18
New King James Version (NKJV)

17. For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, is working for us a far more exceeding and eternal (aionios) weight of glory, 18. while we do not look at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen. For the things which are seen are temporary (proskairos), but the things which are not seen are eternal (aionios).

The aionios of 2 Cor 4:18 must be eternal, in a temporal use or reference, or else Paul's antithesis would make no sense. Paul contrasts it with proskairos which has the meaning of temporary, transient, or for a season, which you imagine the time in hell will be.

[Paidion]

On what basis do you presume the opposite of "temporary" to be "eternal"?

When the pioneers first came to my area, they frequently set up a temporary shelter. Later they built a house for their families. The houses were not temporary. They were lasting. But were they ETERNAL? No. The shelters they set up were temporary, but the houses they built later were lasting.

The fact the lasting things of which Paul spoke happen to be eternal does nothing to prove that "aionios" MEANS eternal. The antitheses makes sense!

"The things which are seen are temporary, but the things which are not seen are lasting." Once again I affirm that the word "aionios" has no temporal connotation.

[Homer]

Paidion,

You wrote:

On what basis do you presume the opposite of "temporary" to be "eternal"?

When the pioneers first came to my area, they frequently set up a temporary shelter. Later they built a house for their families. The houses were not temporary. They were lasting. But were they ETERNAL? No. The shelters they set up were temporary, but the houses they built later were lasting.

So they built aionios houses! Houses which last a relatively few years longer than a temporary shelter are antithetical in the same sense that this world and the life we have in it is antithetical to the unseen eternal state of existence that Paul referred to! The future state of the sheep and the goats is assured of being somewhat longer in duration than life on this earth. Your illustration is only relative, not antithetical.

Perhaps if you would read the context of Paul's statement, 2 Corinthians 4:1-5:5, you will be able to recognize the contrast Paul draws between the future state (unseen) and this earth (seen) and our life on it. And how he speaks of our mortality and contrasts it with life (zoe, life in the absolute sense), which is to come.

Lasting (longer) is not antithetical to temporary.

Your translation of aionios as "lasting" is a poor one. Our eternal "home" will last as long as the homes the pioneers constructed! Perhaps you can come up with a more assuring word.

[Ian]

I don`t know, guys. You two intellectual heavyweights have been slugging this general theme out for months, maybe even years now, with nary an inch conceded by either party. But is the Bible meant to be scrutinised in this way, every dotted i, every crossed t analysed for its possible literal meaning? Did Solomon have exactly 700 wives? Did he line them up and count them one day?

[Homer]

Ian,

I do not flatter myself in that I might persuade Paidion. My concern is for those who might be swayed by universalist propaganda. And I do not think it proper to minimize Jesus' many warnings which are both plain or strongly implied.

[Paidion]

Yes, Ian. I feel exactly the same way as Homer. I have no hopes of persuading him, but I hope to have some impact on others in order to thwart Homer's attempts to prejudice the minds of those who might be considering the extent of God's absolute LOVE by which He will influence all to be reconciled to Him. The truth of the reconciliation of all to God in no way minimizes the warnings of Jesus. This is nonsense.

He is the Saviour of ALL people, especially those who believe!

[steve7150]

Your translation of aionios as "lasting" is a poor one. Our eternal "home" will last as long as the homes the pioneers constructed! Perhaps you can come up with a more assuring word.








Actually i think if "aion" means age then "aionios" can mean lasting since the length of time of "aion" can vary, so "aionios" can mean "for as long as the age lasts."

[Paidion]

Hi Steve 7150. Your understanding of "aionios" as "lasting for an age" whereas "ages" may vary in length, is an interesting idea. With that thought in mind I suppose that the "age" for Jonathan's time in jail would be only 3 years, and the "age" for the mountains might be many thousands of years, and the "age" for the future of the saints would be everlasting.

Your translation of aionios as "lasting" is a poor one. Our eternal "home" will last as long as the homes the pioneers constructed! Perhaps you can come up with a more assuring word.

Homer, I guess when you run out of arguments for your insistence that "aionios" sometimes means "everlasting", you must resort to sarcasm. Of course you know well enough that I have never suggested that the future of the saints is not everlasting — and I have repeatedly affirmed that "aionios", because it means "lasting" and its meaning has no inherent temporal connotation, can be applied to things either temporary or everlasting.

And you know just as well that I brought up the analogy of the pioneers' homes in order to show a contrast between temporary shelters and lasting homes — to illustrate that our dwelling place with the Lord is also lasting, but not merely lasting. That which is everlasting is also lasting. But that which is everlasting is not temporary, and that which is temporary is not lasting (that's why it is called "temporary"). So "temporary" can be contrasted to "lasting".

[Homer]

Paidion,

You wrote:

Your understanding of "aionios" as "lasting for an age" whereas "ages" may vary in length, is an interesting idea. With that thought in mind I suppose that the "age" for Jonathan's time in jail would be only 3 years, and the "age" for the mountains might be many thousands of years, and the "age" for the future of the saints would be everlasting.

So here you appear to admit that aionios can, as an adjective, describe something that is everlasting. If it does not refer to duration in Matthew 25:46, precisely what does it tell us about the future life of the saved and the lost? Used as an antithetic parallel, in one sentence, surely it means the same for each.

According to your posts, aionios can properly apply to a 3 year term in jail. And you wrote:

The things which are seen are temporary, but the things which are not seen are lasting

The word "but" points to something not temporary. But you reference a jail term of three years as aionios. But a three year jail term is temporary:

Definition of temporary:
tem·po·rar·y/ˈtempəˌrerē/Adjective: Lasting for only a limited period of time; not permanent: "a temporary job".

So if the age (aionios) of the time spent in jail did not refer to the time period, what did it refer to? You say aionios has no reference to time but refers to quality; do you think it referred to the food, bedmat, or what?

[steve7150]

Your understanding of "aionios" as "lasting for an age" whereas "ages" may vary in length, is an interesting idea. With that thought in mind I suppose that the "age" for Jonathan's time in jail would be only 3 years, and the "age" for the mountains might be many thousands of years, and the "age" for the future of the saints would be everlasting.



So here you appear to admit that aionios can, as an adjective, describe something that is everlasting. If it does not refer to duration in Matthew 25:46, precisely what does it tell us about the future life of the saved and the lost? Used as an antithetic parallel, in one sentence, surely it means the same for each.






Trying to make a doctrine from one verse is more then a stretch. It could mean the same duration but also it does not have to, and we see no other verse in scripture to confirm this idea. In fact the "righteous" are called "immortal" and "imperishable" in other verses therefore to declare the "immortal" have eternal life actually sounds redundant. "Aion" is simply an undefined amount of time and is applicable differently based on each application of it, so when applied to the unsaved only God knows what it means in this application.
The interesting thing Homer is that you have said the evidence for eternal torment and annihilation is about equal yet here you insist "aion" or "aionios" must refer to everlasting in both cases but that would violate the annihilation doctrine.