Jesus is God

[dwight92070]

Now for a real mess - let's look at more evidence:

If Jesus is not God, then why was it necessary for Him to be born supernaturally, like nobody else? If He is just a man, even a glorified man, a natural birth would be all that was necessary. But of course, He was not just a man, or just a glorified man. He was God in the flesh.

Peter told Jesus, after His resurrection, "Lord You know all things ..." John 21:17 The last time I checked, God is the only ONE Who knows all things. Apparently Peter is acknowledging that Jesus is God.

If he wasn't a man, then he wasn't the second Adam.

Dwight - He WAS a man. He was also God. And couldn't be tempted like us.

And supernatural conception was required to avoid original sin and so that he was uniquely the son of God.

Dwight - I don't believe sin is passed down through our genes. I do believe that He was uniquely the Son of God, which the apostle John tells us is equal with God.

And so forth. These are pretty basic things you can just look up.

Dwight - Looking things up and calling them basic does not make them correct.

Clearly John 21:17 doesn't mean exhaustive foreknowledge like God. Jesus couldn't be more plain when he speak of the Father alone knowing some things, etc.

Dwight - Now it's my turn to call this basic. The risen Christ knew ALL things. He is no longer limited to His mortal body. While on earth, His knowledge was limited. Not now! Peter knew exactly what He was saying. Remember Jesus opened the apostles minds to give them understanding of the scriptures. He understood that Jesus was God.

[darinhouston]

If Jesus is not God, then why was it necessary for Him to be born supernaturally, like nobody else? If He is just a man, even a glorified man, a natural birth would be all that was necessary. But of course, He was not just a man, or just a glorified man. He was God in the flesh.

Why would a supernatural birth be required for him to be God in the flesh? I don't think this proves what you think it does. First, he was born of a virgin to fullfill scripture. Second, while I don't think I can affirm all that the various doctrines of inherited sin entail, scripture does suggest there is something in that which the virgin birth would obviate. Ps. 51:5 is the most troubling passage for those who would deny some form of inherited sin.

Peter told Jesus, after His resurrection, "Lord You know all things ..." John 21:17 The last time I checked, God is the only ONE Who knows all things. Apparently Peter is acknowledging that Jesus is God.

Peter seemed to indicate Jesus had some supernatural insight into all things (he clearly did, which scripture tells us is the Holy Spirit telling him all things). To extrapolate that into omniscience as a divine prerogative as God himself goes further than the passage. And, again, this is a quote from Peter as a pre-follower of Christ stated before Jesus had ascended and not his divinely inspired words of scripture about what he knew about Jesus. Another factor to consider is -- if Jesus had the divine prerogatives of God while on earth so that he was, for example, omniscient (as you have indicated) then wouldn't he be likewise unable to sin and therefore not capable of being tempted to sin? Saying he was both man and God without acknowledging him "setting aside" these prerogatives would negate any meaning of him being human. And yet his humanity is the prevailing teaching in most of the NT, especially John.

If he wasn't a man, then he wasn't the second Adam.

Dwight - He WAS a man. He was also God. And couldn't be tempted like us.

see above

And supernatural conception was required to avoid original sin and so that he was uniquely the son of God.

Dwight - I don't believe sin is passed down through our genes. I do believe that He was uniquely the Son of God, which the apostle John tells us is equal with God.

And so forth. These are pretty basic things you can just look up.

see above

Dwight - Looking things up and calling them basic does not make them correct.

Clearly John 21:17 doesn't mean exhaustive foreknowledge like God. Jesus couldn't be more plain when he speak of the Father alone knowing some things, etc.

Dwight - Now it's my turn to call this basic. The risen Christ knew ALL things. He is no longer limited to His mortal body. While on earth, His knowledge was limited. Not now! Peter knew exactly what He was saying. Remember Jesus opened the apostles minds to give them understanding of the scriptures. He understood that Jesus was God.

see above

[dwight92070]

If Jesus is not God, then why was it necessary for Him to be born supernaturally, like nobody else? If He is just a man, even a glorified man, a natural birth would be all that was necessary. But of course, He was not just a man, or just a glorified man. He was God in the flesh.

Why would a supernatural birth be required for him to be God in the flesh?

Dwight - Gabriel answered that in Luke 1:35 - "... AND FOR THAT REASON the holy Child shall be called the Son of God." Of course he is referring to the Holy Spirit coming upon Mary, and the power of the Most High overshadowing her. So if those supernatural things had not happened to Mary, then obviously, she could not give birth to the Son of God. Again, John tells us that the Son of God is equal to God - John 5:18.

First, he was born of a virgin to fullfill scripture. Second, while I don't think I can affirm all that the various doctrines of inherited sin entail, scripture does suggest there is something in that which the virgin birth would obviate.

Dwight - I agree with your first point. On your second point, where does scripture suggest that?

Ps. 51:5 is the most troubling passage for those who would deny some form of inherited sin.

Dwight - This can be taken in more than one way. One possibility is that his mother had him illegitimately - for example, she could have had an affair. Another could be as follows: "I was brought forth in (a world of) iniquity, and in (a world of) sin my mother conceived me." And of course a third possibility is that he inherited sin from his parents, which is the standard "original sin" interpretation. But where does the Bible teach that the sin nature is passed down through the man? I don't see that anywhere, but I could be wrong. Paul said that he was once alive apart from the law (Romans 7:9) - I take that to mean before he reached the age of accountability. "...but when the commandment came, sin became alive and I died." So before that age he was alive, not "in iniquity" and "in sin". Sin was in the world and all around him, but before that age, he was considered innocent.

Peter told Jesus, after His resurrection, "Lord You know all things ..." John 21:17 The last time I checked, God is the only ONE Who knows all things. Apparently Peter is acknowledging that Jesus is God.

Peter seemed to indicate Jesus had some supernatural insight into all things (he clearly did, which scripture tells us is the Holy Spirit telling him all things).

Dwight - What scripture tells us that Jesus, after He was raised and living in His glorified body was getting supernatural insight from the Holy Spirit?

To extrapolate that into omniscience as a divine prerogative as God himself goes further than the passage.

Dwight - Jesus, having been raised from the dead said, "All authority has been given unto Me in heaven and on earth." That all- encompassing, universal authority requires omniscience and all the other attributes of God, or it is useless.

And, again, this is a quote from Peter as a pre-follower of Christ stated before Jesus had ascended and not his divinely inspired words of scripture about what he knew about Jesus.

Dwight - Just because Peter denied Jesus, that does not mean that he forgot all the revealed understanding that Jesus imparted to him.

Another factor to consider is -- if Jesus had the divine prerogatives of God while on earth so that he was, for example, omniscient (as you have indicated) then wouldn't he be likewise unable to sin and therefore not capable of being tempted to sin?

Dwight - Remember, He was already raised from the dead and in His glorified body, when he spoke to Peter on the beach (while on earth). Yes,in His glorified body, He was unable to sin and unable to be tempted.

Saying he was both man and God without acknowledging him "setting aside" these prerogatives would negate any meaning of him being human.

Dwight - BEFORE his resurrection, actually from His conception, He DID set aside some of His divine prerogatives. But after He was raised, I believe He got all those attributes back.

And yet his humanity is the prevailing teaching in most of the NT, especially John.

Dwight - I see BOTH His humanity and His deity generously presented in the NT.

If he wasn't a man, then he wasn't the second Adam.

Dwight - He WAS a man. He was also God. And couldn't be tempted like us.

see above

And supernatural conception was required to avoid original sin and so that he was uniquely the son of God.

Dwight - I don't believe sin is passed down through our genes. I do believe that He was uniquely the Son of God, which the apostle John tells us is equal with God.

And so forth. These are pretty basic things you can just look up.

see above

Dwight - Looking things up and calling them basic does not make them correct.

Clearly John 21:17 doesn't mean exhaustive foreknowledge like God. Jesus couldn't be more plain when he speak of the Father alone knowing some things, etc.

Dwight - Now it's my turn to call this basic. The risen Christ knew ALL things. He is no longer limited to His mortal body. While on earth, His knowledge was limited. Not now! Peter knew exactly what He was saying. Remember Jesus opened the apostles minds to give them understanding of the scriptures. He understood that Jesus was God.

see above

[darinhouston]

This discussion is having too many threads to discuss efficiently. On omniscience, just read this (as but one example of what a non-trinitarian might present)

https://onegodworship.com/is-jesus-omniscient/

[dwight92070]

I don't buy it. Going by some of the "logic" presented there, then even God the Father is not omniscient, because He asked Cain, "Where is Abel, your brother?" Did God not know where he was? Was God being disingenuous, by pretending to be ignorant of Abel's whereabouts? Obviously not! How about when Yahweh told Abraham (Genesis 18:21) that He had to "go down (to Sodom and Gomorrah) TO SEE IF THEY HAVE DONE ENTIRELY ACCORDING TO IT'S OUTCRY, WHICH HAS COME TO ME; AND IF NOT I WILL KNOW."

Was Yahweh being disingenuous by pretending that He didn't know for sure whether Sodom and Gomorrah had actually done where their outcry suggested? Was God temporarily without His omniscience?

These are some of the foolish reasoning and arguments of the non-Trinitarians.

The Bible tells us that Jesus DID EMPTY HIMSELF of some of His attributes as God, when He came in the flesh as the man, Jesus. Exactly what attributes and how much of them is unknown. We also know that at certain times during His life before He was raised, He still had the prerogative to do certain things that only God can do - commanding the wind and the sea, changing water into wine, multiplying the fish and the bread, walking on water etc. But obviously, when He was raised up in His glorified body and then later ascended to the Father, ALL OF the attributes of God were once again HIS, including omniscience.

[dwight92070]

Here's a few more bullets from my scattergun:

1. Jesus never used his extraordinary powers for His own benefit. Only God could have such a pure and loving and giving character.
2. Jesus seldom quoted scripture as the source of authority for what He was teaching. More often than not, He was His own authority, because He was God.
3. Jesus never called God "Our Father" except when He taught the disciples that they should say that when they pray. Why? Because God was His Father and His alone, because He alone was miraculously conceived in Mary's womb by the Holy Spirit and the power of the Father. He is our Father only in the sense that we are adopted into the family of God. Calling God His own Father, was making Himself equal with God, according to John 5:18.
4. Jesus never said that He had faith in the Father nor do the gospels say that either. Why? Because, as God, He didn't need faith in Himself.
5. Jesus never prayed with anyone. He always prayed alone. Why? Because why would anyone pray with Him to God, when He Himself was God?

[darinhouston]

You keep saying "only God can do such and such" but as we've discussed multiple times even Peter walked on water and he wasn't God. Apostles also healed and raised the dead and all manner of miracles and spiritual gifts which no man can do in their own power but all appear "able" to do (even false Messiahs presumably under other powers) if empowered by adequate and strong enough faith and by the power of the Holy Spirit. Jesus was without equal in his ability to perform miracles, but I believe that is because of the fullness of the indwelling Spirit within Him and his special empowerment due to his mission.

This is really a bit like whack-a-mole.

[darinhouston]

Here's a few more bullets from my scattergun:

1. Jesus never used his extraordinary powers for His own benefit. Only God could have such a pure and loving and giving character.

God or someone indwelt by the fullness of the Holy Spirit and in perfect communion with God. Something we are "called" to do and which some trinitarians even believe we are "capable of." Besides, I'm not sure we have warrant to state that affirmatively from Scripture alone. We don't have record of him doing so, but I'm not sure it would be wrong to do so if it was to the glory of the Father and furtherance of the Kingdom. The two were not mutually incompatible for Jesus, who was perfectly aligned with the will of his father.

2. Jesus seldom quoted scripture as the source of authority for what He was teaching. More often than not, He was His own authority, because He was God.

Well, "seldom" doesn't prove your point -- also, your conclusion does not follow and he even stated otherwise - that he did things not of his own accord but by the power of the Spirit or knowledge revealed to him by the father, etc.

3. Jesus never called God "Our Father" except when He taught the disciples that they should say that when they pray. Why? Because God was His Father and His alone, because He alone was miraculously conceived in Mary's womb by the Holy Spirit and the power of the Father. He is our Father only in the sense that we are adopted into the family of God. Calling God His own Father, was making Himself equal with God, according to John 5:18.

I don't have a problem with most of that - though the "why" is a bit speculative even if true. But the final statement from John -- we've been through this numerous times before - you and I disagree that this passage is the apostle telling us that Jesus made himself equal with God by the statement - I believe this is the apostle telling us that the (always wrong) Jewish leaders saw it that way.

4. Jesus never said that He had faith in the Father nor do the gospels say that either. Why? Because, as God, He didn't need faith in Himself.

This one is simply a flawed premise -- scripture is full of references and inferences to Jesus having faith or living by faith.

Matthew 27:43, which says: "He [Jesus] trusts in God; let God deliver Him now, if He desires Him. For He [Jesus] said, 'I am the Son of God'" (ESV).
Hebrews 10:38 and Galatians 3:11 say: "but My Righteous One shall live by faith, and if He shrinks back, My soul has no pleasure in Him" (ESV).
[/quote]

5. Jesus never prayed with anyone. He always prayed alone. Why? Because why would anyone pray with Him to God, when He Himself was God?

We don't know that Jesus never prayed with anyone - we do have numerous instances of him praying in solitude but he even taught his disciples to pray that way so I don't think that proves much. Besides, I think I'd have to do a study on it to confirm, but I think this may be incorrect. We do know he prayed over meals with others present. And was it just the inspiration of the Spirit that enabled the Apostles to reveal the substance of some of his prayers? I do think he is said to have prayed before most of his miracles and for discernment at times (neither of which he would need to do if this was an inherent power). Also, he definitely prayed with others at his baptism.

[dwight92070]

Matthew 27:43 does not say that Jesus had faith in God. It was the scribes and chief priests and elders that made that false statement. Verse 41-42

Hebrews 10:38 and Galatians 3:11, both quoting Habakkuk 2:4 are NOT speaking of Jesus. It's a general reference to righteous men having faith. We know this because the quote says: "If he shrinks back, My soul has no pleasure in Him." God knew that His Son would never shrink back. But we, as believers, may, and sometimes do.

Now you said that there are a MULTITUDE of scriptures that tell us that Jesus had faith in God. The above three verses certainly don't tell us that. How about, let's say, a dozen more? That's far less than a multitude, so you shouldn't have any trouble identifying them.

By praying with others, I mean the same thing as when we pray with others. Out loud, and we pray and usually they also pray. Usually it says that He "gave thanks" before meals, granted, but did He ever ask Peter, or John, for example, to lead them in prayer before meals? No. If someone is praying with others, he is NOT the only one who prays.

How did the apostles know the substance of some of His prayers? That's quite easy to understand. Apparently He prayed within earshot of them, like in the Garden of Gethsemane. But even there, He told His apostles to "remain here while I go over there and pray" - alone.

Prayer with His disciples before His miracles? Tell me which miracle did He do, where He and His disciples first prayed about it together, before He performed it? None.

At His baptism? Only Luke says that after Jesus was baptized, AND WHILE HE WAS PRAYING (No one else was praying was with Him, at least not out loud) the Holy Spirit came upon Him. There's no mention that John the Baptist or any of His followers were praying with Him. There, too, He prayed alone.

In the book of Acts, on the other hand, the disciples are shown as praying together on several occasions.

[darinhouston]

This is really tiring - first, I never said "MULTITUDE" - and inferences are just that. I don't have the time or inclination to find them - I have nothing to prove to you. You are the one with the affirmative statement and you are the one that must prove your proposition. I denied it or at least don't accept it. If you want to prove otherwise, go ahead. You have asked me questions and I have answered them. You are trying to prove that Jesus is God and I have either responded to your assertions or asked you further questions - I am not trying to prove anything - you are.