Rev 20:11-15

[mgarrett]

Steve,

Thank you for taking the time to answer my questions. I do have an additional question for you on this. You said......

3. What is the purpose?
A. To vindicate God's verdict, and to show (by examining works) who had a justifying faith.

Do Christians go to be with Christ immediately upon death? Paul said,....

Phil 1:22-24
22If I am to go on living in the body, this will mean fruitful labor for me. Yet what shall I choose? I do not know! 23I am torn between the two: I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is better by far; 24but it is more necessary for you that I remain in the body.

If Christians go to be with Christ immediately upon death - and nonbelievers do not - then isn't it already determined who had justifying faith? Therefore, the judgment when Christ returns must be for something else???? This is where I am unsure.

Todd

[Guest]

Hi Steve, As Todd mentioned if i have understood you correctly have'nt you said you now believe in conditional mortality and that believers spirits go to be with the Lord immediately upon their death? If so are'nt they judged before his second coming?

[Guest]

I do believe in the believer's immediate entry into heaven at death, but I also see the scriptures teaching a general resurrection and judgment of the saved and the lost at the second coming.

This scenario does not necessarily mean that the believer's judgment occurs at death. The judgment that determines who belongs in heaven occurs, I think, at conversion. When the sinner comes to the cross of Christ and obtains mercy, he is regenerated and comes to be "in Christ". The judgment of Christ on the cross becomes that sinner's own judgment, and the resurrection of Christ becomes the sinner's own regeneration.

So long as he abides in Christ, his destiny is assured, and no separate appraisal needs to occur at the moment of death to determine whether or not his life will continue in heaven. In fact, he is already there, in Christ (Eph.2:6). Already, "you died, and your life is hid with Christ in God" (Col.3:3). "Our citizenship is in heaven" (Phil.3:21) even while we are domiciled on this planet in these bodies. Physical death simply transports us home from our mission abroad.

The judgment at the end of all time includes the assessment and rewarding of the believer's works, as well as the assessment and punishment of the sinner's works. The sinner's judgment will demonstrate that his works were not those tyhat proceed from faith in Christ and that they were, thus, not believers. The believer's judgment will justify the relative nature of the rewards that God gives to each one—"you have been faithful with ten pounds—have authority over ten cities!" (Luke 19:17).

At least this is how I have come to understand these matters. It may turn out differently, if I am mistaken.

[mgarrett]

Deleted because it was off-topic somewhat.

[Guest]

I appreciate the discussion on this matter and would like to comment on it in the near future. At this point I would just like to broaden the scope of the discussion by adding some verses in Daniel chapter 7 to this discussion.

Dan.7:9-10 "I kept looking until thrones were set up, and the Ancient of Days took His seat; His vesture was like white snow, and the hair of His head like pure wool. His vesture was like white snow, and the hair of His head like pure wool. His throne was ablaze with flames, its wheels were a burning fire. A river of fire was flowing and coming out from before Him; thousands upon thousands were attending Him, and myriads upon myriads were standing before Him: The court sat, and the books were opened."

Dan.7:13-14 "I kept looking in the night visions, and behold, with the clouds of heaven one like a Son of Man was coming, and he came up to the Ancient of Days and was presented before Him. And to Him was given dominion, glory and a kingdom, that all the peoples, nations, and men of every language might serve Him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion which will not pass away: and His kingdom is one which will not be destroyed." (New American Standard Bible)

[Guest]

I believe the Great White Throne judgement is only for unbelievers to be judged after they are raised

If that is the case, Steve (not Gregg), then why is it specified that among those raised at the Great White Throne Judgment, "those whose names were not written in the Lamb's book of life, were cast into the Lake of Fire"? Doesn't that stament imply, at least implicitly, that some of them did have their names written in the Lamb's book of life?

[Guest]

Paidion, Very good point , i did'nt read it carefully enough there is that key word "if" implying both believers and unbelivers are there to be judged.

[Guest]

I don't think that we can just assume that because the word states that all those whose names were not written in the book of life were cast into the lake of fire that this group of people here includeds both the saved and the unsaved. It may well be that none of this group had names written in the book of life and that the word is showing us their destiny.

Roger

[Guest]

I think we should interpret the somewhat cloudy passage in Revelation by the light of corrsponding Scripture. In m observation Scripture speaks toward a general resurrection of all who have lived. For example:

Acts 24
14However, I admit that I worship the God of our fathers as a follower of the Way, which they call a sect. I believe everything that agrees with the Law and that is written in the Prophets, 15and I have the same hope in God as these men, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked. 16So I strive always to keep my conscience clear before God and man.

When I read that, it comes across as 'a resurrection' (not 'resurrections) which includes righteous and wicked people.

[mgarrett]

Steve,

Please comment on the following.

Rev 20:11-12
11 And I saw a great white throne and Him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away, and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and the books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

Here it says that those appearing at the great white throne are dead. If this event were to happen after the resurrection then noone would be dead, right?

Isn't it just possible that this judgment happens as people die (Heb 9:27). Those who are not believers are destroyed in the lake of fire. I see it parallel to this verse:

Matt 10:28
Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

This connection then would make the destruction of the soul equivalent to the second death. It would also be parallel to what is meant by "perish" in John 3:16.

Any thoughts?

Todd