The faith OF Jesus Christ

Si
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Re: The faith OF Jesus Christ

Post by Si » Sun Feb 25, 2018 7:59 pm

dwight92070 wrote:
Si wrote:It says it in Hebrews 3,

Hebrews 3 NKJV, "1 Therefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our confession, Christ Jesus, 2 who was faithful to Him who appointed Him, as Moses also was faithful in all His house. "
Dwight: To be "faithful to Him" is not the same as having "faith in Him". Those are totally different.
What is the difference? They seem more like two aspects of the same thing. Your question was about whether Jesus "exercised faith", and that is what I attempted to answer.

Earlier you said:
dwight92070 wrote:I don't see in scripture where He exercised faith, because He was God in the flesh. Would Jesus have faith in Himself?"
Hebrews 3:1-2 shows how Jesus exercised faith pretty clearly. Jesus having faith in the Father is not having faith in himself, because they are two separate persons. The plan of redemption over and over was an act of obedience of the Son to the Father. This requires, among other things, faith in the Father, especially given his emptied, vulnerable state. Jesus in every way provided an example for us. If the center of the Christian life is faith, would Christ not be the shining example of that faithfulness that we are to have? Jesus took up his cross willingly, and we are commanded to do the same. Faith is more than just "belief". It is also trust, confidence, loyalty, etc. Jesus, tempted in all ways as we are, lived up to those perfectly. It seems to me that such would require a great deal of faith.

For the record, I am not defending one reading or another of the thread topic, I don't know enough about Greek to make an educated guess. I am just defending the notion that Jesus had faith.

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dwight92070
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Re: The faith OF Jesus Christ

Post by dwight92070 » Mon Feb 26, 2018 12:51 am

If a woman is faithful to her husband, that says she is loyal to him, but it tells us nothing about her husband. He could be a real creep and yet she could still be faithful to him. On the other hand, if she has faith in her husband, now we see she trusts him, which tells us a great deal about his character. If he was a creep, there's no way she could trust him, even if she pretended to. They are not the same thing.

Si
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Re: The faith OF Jesus Christ

Post by Si » Mon Feb 26, 2018 7:27 am

dwight92070 wrote:If a woman is faithful to her husband, that says she is loyal to him, but it tells us nothing about her husband. He could be a real creep and yet she could still be faithful to him. On the other hand, if she has faith in her husband, now we see she trusts him, which tells us a great deal about his character. If he was a creep, there's no way she could trust him, even if she pretended to. They are not the same thing.
So why can't Jesus have faith in his Father? It seems to me that Jesus is faithful to his Father because he has faith in him. I don't understand your parallel because surely Jesus trusts his Father. When Jesus was tempted in the wilderness, when he was in agony in Gethsemane, he had faith in the will of his Father who sent him, to remain sinless and obedient unto death. Do our own struggles against temptation not require a great deal of faith to overcome? If Jesus was tempted in all ways as we are, would he not have faith, that trust, confidence, and loyalty in and towards the Father who sent him, to overcome as well?

Let me ask you this, since your initial point was about Jesus "exercising faith". In Hebrews 3, when it says Jesus was "faithful to him who appointed him", is that not Jesus exercising faith? Whichever translation of Galatians 2:16 is preferred, could not the faith of Hebrews 3 be spoken of as the faith of Jesus?

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dwight92070
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Re: The faith OF Jesus Christ

Post by dwight92070 » Mon Feb 26, 2018 8:09 am

Si wrote:
dwight92070 wrote:If a woman is faithful to her husband, that says she is loyal to him, but it tells us nothing about her husband. He could be a real creep and yet she could still be faithful to him. On the other hand, if she has faith in her husband, now we see she trusts him, which tells us a great deal about his character. If he was a creep, there's no way she could trust him, even if she pretended to. They are not the same thing.
So why can't Jesus have faith in his Father? It seems to me that Jesus is faithful to his Father because he has faith in him. I don't understand your parallel because surely Jesus trusts his Father. When Jesus was tempted in the wilderness, when he was in agony in Gethsemane, he had faith in the will of his Father who sent him, to remain sinless and obedient unto death. Do our own struggles against temptation not require a great deal of faith to overcome? If Jesus was tempted in all ways as we are, would he not have faith, that trust, confidence, and loyalty in and towards the Father who sent him, to overcome as well?

Let me ask you this, since your initial point was about Jesus "exercising faith". In Hebrews 3, when it says Jesus was "faithful to him who appointed him", is that not Jesus exercising faith? Whichever translation of Galatians 2:16 is preferred, could not the faith of Hebrews 3 be spoken of as the faith of Jesus?
Dwight: You definitely make some good points and have me rethinking the topic. The Word of Faith teachers say that God Himself exercised faith when He created all things. (Hebrews 11:3) Hank Haanegraph teaches that that is a mistake because who or what does God Himself have faith in? I have always agreed with that. Hank says that the faith mentioned here is our faith - By faith WE understand. If the Word of Faith teaching is correct, It's as if God had to rely on something other than Himself (faith) in order to create anything. which sounds absurd. In fact, they say that indeed faith is a spiritual law that even God Himself is subject to. How absurd is that? But possibly I have been wrong about Jesus having faith while He was on the earth, even though I don't see any direct reference to that. But you certainly have pointed out some indirect references that indicate that may be the case.

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dwight92070
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Re: The faith OF Jesus Christ

Post by dwight92070 » Mon Feb 26, 2018 9:22 am

I like the way Steve Gregg explained it. He said to have faith in God means that we believe He is faithful. But to be faithful to God means that we are faithful.

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mikew
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Re: The faith OF Jesus Christ

Post by mikew » Mon Feb 26, 2018 11:58 am

I wanted to point out (without any change of view from my original post) that many scholars, such as NT Wright, translate the genitive as faithfulness of Christ rather than faith of Christ. So most of the debate has been against or for the 'faithfulness of Jesus' proposal. I was checking my notes for confirmation of the originator of the idea that the term is ambiguous, but I haven't found it yet.
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mattrose
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Re: The faith OF Jesus Christ

Post by mattrose » Mon Feb 26, 2018 6:43 pm

Yeah, I'm convinced that the 'faith OF Christ' is the best translation.

I interpret it as the 'faith(fulness) OF Christ'

Christ, as the representative human, is our salvation.

It's not about Jesus having 'faith' in the modern (largely psychological) sense of the term

It's about Jesus being the 2nd Adam... getting things right... showing us a new way to be human

Si
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Re: The faith OF Jesus Christ

Post by Si » Mon Feb 26, 2018 7:12 pm

dwight92070 wrote:Dwight: You definitely make some good points and have me rethinking the topic. The Word of Faith teachers say that God Himself exercised faith when He created all things. (Hebrews 11:3) Hank Haanegraph teaches that that is a mistake because who or what does God Himself have faith in? I have always agreed with that. Hank says that the faith mentioned here is our faith - By faith WE understand. If the Word of Faith teaching is correct, It's as if God had to rely on something other than Himself (faith) in order to create anything. which sounds absurd. In fact, they say that indeed faith is a spiritual law that even God Himself is subject to. How absurd is that? But possibly I have been wrong about Jesus having faith while He was on the earth, even though I don't see any direct reference to that. But you certainly have pointed out some indirect references that indicate that may be the case.
I agree with your understanding of Hebrews 11:3.

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mikew
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Re: The faith OF Jesus Christ

Post by mikew » Mon Feb 26, 2018 8:51 pm

No one has really dealt with the wording in Gal 2:16

We have "so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ"

The quick paraphrase is that we have come to have faith in Christ in order that we would be justified by that faith. The act of faith brought forth the justification by faith. This tight association seems to favor the objective reading "faith in Christ." The discussion in verse 16 is not focused on anything explicit about the faithfulness of Christ (nor of Christ having faith toward this or that).

Use of the genitive would tend to muddy the meaning of 2:16.
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Homer
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Re: The faith OF Jesus Christ

Post by Homer » Mon Feb 26, 2018 9:08 pm

Hi Paidion,

You wrote:
So I agree with you, Homer, that Jesus was fully human when He walked this earth. But I have a couple of questions, Homer. Was He still fully human after His resurrection? Will we be fully human after our resurrection? This may be a matter of terminology. What does it MEAN to be fully human?
I do not wish to be dogmatic where the scriptures are silent, but the fact that Jesus ate food after the resurrection would seem to point to a body much like He had on earth. Why would He have eaten food and why would we be informed of this if not to make a point to the disciples and to us that He was not just a spirit? That is what Luke's story seems to say:

Luke 24:36-43 (NASB)

36. While they were telling these things, He Himself stood in their midst and *said to them, “Peace be to you.” 37. But they were startled and frightened and thought that they were seeing a spirit. 38. And He said to them, “Why are you troubled, and why do doubts arise in your hearts? 39. See My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself; touch Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have.” 40. And when He had said this, He showed them His hands and His feet. 41. While they still could not believe it because of their joy and amazement, He said to them, “Have you anything here to eat?” 42. They gave Him a piece of a broiled fish; 43 and He took it and ate it before them.

Some think the point made was that the kingdom had come.

To be fully human seems to be only a question regarding the nature of the man Jesus. It is pointless regarding us; we are fully human by nature. The scriptures do not answer directly this question in regard to Jesus.

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